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Old March 18, 2012   #1
TnMurph
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Default Does Glysophate (roundup) harm anything in the soil?

I am planting into a new garden area this year and would like to know if spraying roundup before putting in tomatoes harms anything other than the weeds. I want to preserve all the microbes and other beneficial critters in the soil, but the garden area was basically part of a pasture up until now. I know I'm going to have a serious battle against weeds for a long time, but would like to give them a dose before planting starts. I sprayed gly once last year and a combination of gly and clethodim once last year trying to kill the bermuda.

Thanks for your help!
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Old March 18, 2012   #2
Sun City Linda
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I think it kills earthworms. Dont know about microbes.
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Old March 19, 2012   #3
Tracydr
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If you're dealing with Bermuda and not worried about organic, you probably want to do the round-up. Maybe reseed the worms and microbes with some worm compost afterwards.
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Old March 19, 2012   #4
carolyn137
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http://www.howstuffworks.com/question357.htm

If you Google Roundup there are so many links it will make your head spin, but I chose the one above to make a simple point.

Glyphosphate kills only plants of all kinds, be they weeds, poison ivy, yes tomato plants, or whatever, that are growing plants b'c it inhibits an enzyme that's necessary for plant growth.

It's the most commonly used herbicide in the world and lots of data is known about it if you want to do a search.

I've used it a couple of times with excellent results but you want to be sure to use it when there is no wind drift. One time I used it when a group of Master Gardeners were coming to my tomato field for a demonstartion day and it was the easiest way to get rid of the weeds in betwen the rows.

And the second time was here where I now live and no problems at all, As I recall it has a short half life so the glyphosphate doesn't stay long in the environment as do some other herbicides.
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Old March 19, 2012   #5
mcsee
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It's probably a good thing with Poisons/Herbicides etc to download the MSDS sheets which will give you the information on Worm safety etc.

Browsing the Internet will give you a myriad of 'evils' associated with Glyphosate, some maybe true, some not.
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Old March 19, 2012   #6
b54red
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I use it occasionally and have found no reduction in the number of earthworms. One spraying will not get rid of Bermuda grass in my experience. I have nutgrass in one bed and have to use it because no mulch short of 6 inches of concrete will stop that stuff. It is effective in killing it back but I still have a problem with it. That bed is also the one that gets the most Round Up and is also my most productive bed so I don't think it is hurting the tomatoes but if you happen to let it drift onto them it will kill them much better than it will kill Bermuda grass.
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Old March 19, 2012   #7
RebelRidin
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Roundup works pretty well with reasonable safety. I have used it around the garden and our home off and on for many years. So long as you heed Carolyn's advice about wind/drift and apply label rate you should get good results. You would have to seriously overdose to significantly affect your soil organisms.

I remember when Roundup was first introduced in the early/mid seventies. It was revolutionary. It was considered by many farmers to be an absolute godsend at the time, even at the then astronomical price of $85/gallon.

In the midwest it was being applied in corn fields using homemade rope wick applicators to combat Johnson grass. I got to build such a homemade applicator when I worked as a summer assistant on a wildlife management area and I have since used it with a hand held ropewick I made to kill dandelions in lawns.

You won't find much information on rope wick applicators now. I find it a shame that such pragmatic concerns as finding the best use for the product were dwarfed by desires to create new uses for it (aka "Roundup Ready"). Still, IMHO Roundup remains the best compared to the other options available for most uses, particulalry around the home.
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Old March 19, 2012   #8
fortyonenorth
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This article appeared in Acres USA last year. I read it at the time and remember it to be very interesting.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/artm...2011_Huber.pdf
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Old March 19, 2012   #9
bughunter99
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Interesting article. This part in particular. I had no idea that it could reactivate and adversely affect the crops you were trying to help in the first place.

We do know that even though it’s immobilized rapidly in most soils it can then be reactivated or desorbed and reactivated to damage future crops.
ACRES U.S.A. What must happen to reactivate it?
HUBER. One of the things that’s recently
been shown to do this is to apply phosphorus fertilizer on the crop. From a nutritional standpoint, it can actually desorb the glyphosate so that it’s again reactivated as an active chemical for plant uptake and damage.
ACRES U.S.A. Has this been demonstrated
by researchers to impact the crops when it’s desorbed?
HUBER. Yes. That can be quite damaging
to the crop and actually limit uptake of nutrients required by the crop as much as 60 to 70 percent, and that’s pretty much across the board.
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Old March 19, 2012   #10
carolyn137
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For every product that's not organic you'll find two kinds of links for infomation. One is from those who are strongly organic in everything they use and the other kinds of links are for folks who are not, or partially organic.

The same situation obtains with Daconil ( chlorothalonil) and many other products.

So you can find any kind of information you want to both pro and anti any product.

Yes, I've looked at the MSDA sheets, go to EXTOXNET for more, EXTOXNET is a great site that's the collaboration of several Universities that gives unbiased information about many products.

As for me, I do not condemn a product based on whether it's organic or not. What I'm concerned with is toxicity to humans, pets, the environment in general, etc.. Rotenone, for instance, which is organic, has greater toxicity to the environment than does Daconil.

Water can be toxic to humans if too much is taken, usually one sees that in the papers following hazing of fraternity pledges where brain damage occurs. Salt, NACL, can be toxic as well.

Summary; define what your own personal philosophy is with regard to organic vs inorganic, but don't condemn others for using a product that you wouldn't use. And don't climb on the bandwagons of those who are agenda bound. Do your own research and if you have a scientific background it really does help to be able to interpret some of the papers that report results of this or that.

http://extoxnet.orst.edu/
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Old March 19, 2012   #11
fortyonenorth
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I agree. One of the takeaways for me was that the residual effects may not be catastrophic (e.g. plant death), but insidious by way of dramatically reduced nutrient uptake. So, your crop doesn't die, it just ends up with the nutritional value of a Twinkie.

Also, significantly, this guy being interviewed (Huber) is a professor emeritus at Purdue - not simply an anti-Monsanto crusader.
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Old March 19, 2012   #12
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If I am remembering correctly, one thing about Roundup is - it says most things can be planted after a couple days, but to plant tomatoes in the area, you need to wait 30 days. So if that is still on the label, you need to use it well in advance.
I have used Roundup to prepare a garden, everything worked out fine.
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Old March 19, 2012   #13
RayR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fortyonenorth View Post
I agree. One of the takeaways for me was that the residual effects may not be catastrophic (e.g. plant death), but insidious by way of dramatically reduced nutrient uptake. So, your crop doesn't die, it just ends up with the nutritional value of a Twinkie.
One of the things about Glysophate that raised the alarm for me was the claims about it being "immobilized in the soil" or "tightly bound" in the soil". This occurs in high CEC soils, particularly in clay soils just like nutrient cations are bound to soil particles. Interpreting that means that it actually persists in the soil, which in some cases can be years until it is unbound and can be degraded by microorganisms or will be taken up by plant roots. Another thing is its known toxicity to some beneficial microorganisms.
Like any other chemical, there are known beneficial consequences to using it, but the unintended bad consequences discovered over time is something that shouldn't be ignored.
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Old March 19, 2012   #14
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I did a google on the following topic concerning RoundUp (Glyphosate)

"Effects of glyphosate on rhizosphere soil microbial communities"

Here are some excerpts from different articles. Ami

Reports show that glyphosate imposes diverse effects on
the biology and ecology of rhizosphere microorganisms and on
their interactions with plant roots when released into the rhizosphere.
Although the interactions suggest a “secondary mode
of action” of glyphosate by pre-disposing susceptible plants to
microbial infection (Johal and Rahe, 1984), the potential for developing
critical pathogen inocula levels in soils that affect crop
health, altering rhizosphere microbial communities involved in
nutrient transformations, and shifting the balance of beneficial
and detrimental plant-associated microorganisms are legitimate
concerns regarding the impact of glyphosate on crop productivity
and environmental sustainability. This is especially significant
with consideration to the current widespread use of glyphosate in
glyphosate-resistant (GR) cropping systems.

Glyphosate reduces nitrogen fixation by several mechanisms. Nitrogen-fixing bacteria such as the soybean symbiont, Bradyrhizobioum japonicum, possess a glypohsate-sensitive EPSPS, and hence fail to grow when exposed to glyphosate.

Some 40 diseases are known to be increased in weed control programmes with glyphosate and the list is growing [1, 12], affecting a wide range of species: apples, bananas, barley, bean, canola, citrus, cotton, grape, melon, soybean, sugar beet, sugarcane, tomato and wheat.

Diseases caused by the fungus Fusarium have increased with the extensive use of glyphosate [12]. For example, glyphosate use predisposes tomatoes to Fusarium crown and root rot.

Research published in 1979 already showed that glyphosate absorbed through plant foliage after application was transported systemically toward the roots and eventually released into the rhizopshere [15] where it changes the whole ecology of the soil, resulting in increased colonisation of plant roots by pathogenic species such as Fusarium and Phytophorthora, as well as Pythium in bean plants.
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Old March 19, 2012   #15
bughunter99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fortyonenorth View Post
I agree. One of the takeaways for me was that the residual effects may not be catastrophic (e.g. plant death), but insidious by way of dramatically reduced nutrient uptake. So, your crop doesn't die, it just ends up with the nutritional value of a Twinkie.

Also, significantly, this guy being interviewed (Huber) is a professor emeritus at Purdue - not simply an anti-Monsanto crusader.
For me the key point as well is that it does not go away and it can become reactivated impacting anything you have since planted in the site. The persistence of its ability to kill/impact is not a small thing for me. That and frankly I do not trust our government to give us the straight scoop about it. I believe the papers that indicate a negative impact on microbial life. It is logical.

Way too many times I have seen drugs, vaccines, chemicals, additives given a green stamp of safety and then later, have it pulled. after being associated with devastating consequences. The corporate influence on the decisions regarding labeling cannot be denied. I follow my instincts with stuff like Round Up. For me any chemical capable of killing all plant life, with the ability to "reactivate" is not anything I want anywhere near my food growing area. I grow my own food to provide healthier options for my family. That means minimizing unnecessary chemical exposure as much as possible.

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