Germinating very old seeds

[clara]

From 2 different sources I've got older tomato seeds. One part must be older than 10 years, the others probably 5 - 8 years. As of some varieties I only have a few seeds and the varieties seem to be very rare, I want to use the best possible method for awakening them.

In former years, I've put older seeds in lukewarm chamomile tea for 24 days before putting them into the starting mix. Mostly this has worked perfectly. But sometimes after germination, the seed coat wasn't thrown away. Now I'm thinking about gently rubbing the older seeds on sandpaper before the chamomile bath, really gently to help the first leaves to come through. Could that work? What are your methods? Thank you for every tip! clara

[tessa]

24 days???? or 24 hours?

[doublehelix]

Mix one part bleach to one part water and soak for 30 minutes. Rinse seeds and plant immediately in a soilless planting mix. This has been the best method for me. Don't leave the seeds in the bleach any longer than the 30 minutes or it could kill them. Good luck.

[ContainerTed]

Clara, I think the key to my recent success in "waking up" Maiden's Gold was a 24 hour soak in Miracle Grow Organic fertilizer. It's a "nitrogen only" fertilizer. I used it in a 25% solution and kept everything at about 75 degrees Fahrenheit.

The seeds were over 20 years old and had been stored in a box of pictures on the upper shelf of a closet. They were there because I thought I had lost them years before. We discovered them during a closet cleanout/cleanup.

Of 10 seeds planted in Miracle Grow Seed Starter Mix with a bit of Biotone sprinkled in, I finally got one tiny little head to come up after 7 weeks. That plant produced one tomato that year (2009). The seeds from that one tom produced several plants in 2010 from which lots of seeds were saved. So, you might get weak plants that will require a lot of TLC to get them thru to fruiting.

Bottom line - I'm left with the feeling that the nitrogen was the key. Making some extra nitrogen available on the seed casings may have helped things along.

Hope this helps.

[carolyn137]

Since in the past I've offered lots of older seeds in my seed offer here you can go to the TRADE subforum of the Seed Exchange and read the paragaraph describing what I have done with old seeds and have been quite successful.

For seeds less than about 10 yo I do nothing, just double sow, but I ccan do that b/c I usually have lots of seeds of a variety.

Beyond about 10 years I use the method posted in those seed offers.

My best to date is waking up seeds of September Dawn that were 22 years old.

Frogsleapfarm, Mark, woke up some seeds from 1993 that I sent him last Spring. The variety is Dourne D'Hiver which is a nor or rin mutant, or both. He uses a filter paper method.

The documented record for waking up old seeds was 50 yo and those were some seeds that were transferred from the Cheyenne, WY USDA percursor station to the new USDA station in Ames, IA. They'd been stored in WY just in a file drawer.

Ted, methinks I helped some in getting your seeds of Maiden's Gold to germinate for you and as I told you previously, I've SSE listed them for 2012 so you shouldn't have to ever worry again about losing your family heirloom tomato variety. Of course there are others here to whom you've sent seeds and I think I have enough seeds to offer in my seed offere here as well.

[clara]

Thank you all for your help! I think I must start the old seeds much earlier than the rather fresh ones, good to know! Normally it takes only 2 - 4 days for me.

Carolyn, I had done a search (Old Seeds) before starting the thread, but didn't find what you had posted on this subject, sorry!

Tessa, yes, that was my mistake: 24 HOURS of course!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by clara

Thank you all for your help! I think I must start the old seeds much earlier than the rather fresh ones, good to know! Normally it takes only 2 - 4 days for me.

Carolyn, I had done a search (Old Seeds) before starting the thread, but didn't find what you had posted on this subject, sorry!

Tessa, yes, that was my mistake: 24 HOURS of course!

Clara, I had said it was from my last seed offer which was Jan 6, 2011 and was in the Trade section of the Seed Exchange:

VARIETIES DELETED from my Yearbook listings b’c the seeds were over 5 yo or there weren’t enough seeds to keep listing. Germination should be at least 50% and often more, OK, and sometimes less. ( usually 10-15 seeds sent and you should double sow to be sure you get enough plants and sow no less than 6-8 seeds). I double sow seeds for varieties less than about 10 years old and do it another way if over about 10 yo. For the seeds from 2003, 2004 and 2005 you might want to soak the seeds for about 18 hrs, stirring to be sure the seeds sink, and adding a pinch of blue stuff, MG or Peters or the like, or a few drops of liquid seaweed or fish emulsion before actually sowing the seed.


And I'll add that seed germination is known to involve the nitrate ion, which is why the added MG or Peters or the liquid seaweed or fish emulsions, all of which have higher nitrate concentrations. Many years ago I used to use K nitrate but stopped doing that,

My efforts at contacting tomato seed physiologists to find out how increased nitrate was specifically involved didn't bear any results although all agreed, actually just the two that I contacted, that nitrate ion was involved.

In addition to the above suggestions with old seed, and I should add it for the 2012 version, after sowing the seed I continue to water when necessary with a dilute solution of one of the above products mentioned.

Depending on variables, other than seed age, that I can't define, I've had to wait many times more that a month and often a couple of months before I saw any germination, and sometimes no germination at all. But the above is what I do with seeds older than about 10-12 years old and would also do if I was sent just a few seeds of a very very rare variety.

Several of us have found that seeds of heart varieties are not as long lived as the seeds of non-heart varieties.

Does that help?

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Ted, methinks I helped some in getting your seeds of Maiden's Gold to germinate for you and as I told you previously, I've SSE listed them for 2012 so you shouldn't have to ever worry again about losing your family heirloom tomato variety. Of course there are others here to whom you've sent seeds and I think I have enough seeds to offer in my seed offere here as well.

Indeed, your help was critical to being able to see that one little head come thru. As a "Thank You", I have not listed it at SSE, even though I have plenty of fresh seed now. I wanted to give you a chance to be an exclusive source for this year.


MaidensGold.JPG MaidensGold2.JPG

[clara]

Yes, Carolyn, that helps! Now I simply have to look for similar products as yours in the US, Miracle Grow, Peters etc. I already have fish emulsion, have used it as a fertilizer.

Thanks again all of you! clara

[Zeedman]

The "nitrate soak" method has worked well for me also... and not just for tomatoes. I was attempting to germinate a yardlong bean from a tropical source, which appeared to have been harvested immature. Planted in pots w/ sterile mix, I had 0/50 germinate on the first attempt. The next year I tried again, this time using a solution of 1 tsp liquid plant food (high nitrate) to 1 gallon of water. After planting (again in pots w/ sterile mix) I soaked the pots in the solution overnight, then drained the excess solution from the tray, and kept the soil moist with sterile water. Over 60% germinated!

If using an organic source (fish emulsion, manure tea) I recommend boiling the solution to sterilize it. The use of all sterile material helps to remove pathogens which might take advantage of the old seed's weakened condition, and will give better results than nitrogen alone.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by clara

Yes, Carolyn, that helps! Now I simply have to look for similar products as yours in the US, Miracle Grow, Peters etc. I already have fish emulsion, have used it as a fertilizer.

Thanks again all of you! clara

Clara, I don't see any need to look for the equivalents of Miracle Grow and the like. You've got Fish emulsion and that should do well. Just a few drops in water when you soak the seeds. I used new small what we call Dixie cups here, the size that one might find in a despenser in a bathroom.

Zeedman, you're absolutely right that a nitrate soak is good for other seeds as well. The concentration for pure K nitrate is 0.02 %, or maybe 0.2%, can't remember which, which works out to about one teaspoon per gallon of water, which I do remember.

I switched from using pure Knitrate, some know it as saltpetre, many years ago and the products I used above seemed to be a bit better, at least with much older tomato seeds.

Have also tried Giberellic acid, which one has to use with K nitrate or the seedlings are too gangly, as well as cold tea and microwaving.

[doublehelix]

All the nitrogen in the world won't help if water does not penetrate the seed coat and reach the endosperm in a relatively uniform and quick fashion. Germination is initiated when starch stored in the endosperm is converted to sugar. Water and warmth are the only components needed to start this process. The reason the nitrogen is useful is because of the enzymatic pathway involved in the breaking down of the starch and converting it to sugar. Nitrogen does not play a role in breaking down the seed coat or in the imbibition process. There is a fine line between decay and germination. Slow saturation of the endosperm in old seed is caused by the thickening or hardening or both of the seed coat. If the conversion of starch is not kicked off quickly then decay will compete with the process. Bacteria, Fungi, and Yeast can all play a role in this. The bleach solution (sodium hypochlorite) helps dissolve the thickened or hardened seed coat so that water can reach the endosperm in a more uniform manner. There are other things that can do this but they are not readily available to the home gardener or as inexpensive as bleach. As an added bonus it is pretty good at killing pathogens that cause decay. The method I described is the method used by TGRC and most other research facilities working with seeds.

It is not the only method, just one that seems to work very well without any voodoo.

[salix]

Steve, thank you for that very informative post.

[Fusion_power]

Of the answers above, none really addressed the issue of sticktight seedcoats which was in the OP query. Here is what I have posted in the seedling link on my website.

"The seedcoat is clinging tightly to the cotyledons, what do I do?
Sticktight seedcoats occur on a large number of seedlings. In most cases, they are easily removed. Start by moistening the seedcoat. You can mist it with water, hold a soaking wet cotton ball to it, or just drop water on it from your fingers. One person even recommends putting a small ball of saliva on the seedcoat to soften it. Once it is thoroughly soft, you should be able to gently pinch it free or use a needle to release it or even just leave it be and let the plant push it off.

An excellent method to reduce the number of sticktights is to soak the seed pre-plant for 30 minutes in a solution of household bleach and water at a ratio of 1 part bleach to 5 parts water. The disadvantage of doing this is that you have to handle wet seed when planting. It does reduce sticktights and can help reduce seedborne diseases! "

I personally use the saliva method with outstanding success. The seedlings don't mind and the pepsin seems to be very effective at softening the seedcoat.

DarJones

[MikeInOhio]

Clara,

I have been germinating older seeds for some time now and find that a heat mat offers the best success rate. I always get better results with heat than without. The Hydrofarm-brand mats are relatively inexpensive and last for many, many years.

http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-MT10.../dp/B000E3DDP2

Regards,
Mike