2017 Grafting thread: Open to all - Page 9

b54red · February 10, 2017

You know how I said it only takes one mistake to mess up a batch of plants. The ones I did on the 4th were looking good and it was supposed to be cool today with highs barely getting out of the 50s. The day started out that way with a cold wind so I didn't turn on my air conditioner in my greenhouse. I had to run some errands and when I got back I realized it had gotten really hot. I went out and checked the greenhouse and it was like an oven. It looks like I am going to lose quite a few out of that chamber that was open so I misted them and closed the lid and turned on the air to try and get it cooler. I will let you know tomorrow how bad it is.

Bill

Gardeneer · February 10, 2017

OBSERVATION:

If after, say, a day or two Scion is alive ( No signs of wilting) that perhaps indicates that
it is getting food/moisture from the RS. That in turn also indicates that RS is also getting photosynthesis from the scion.
So all is needed is not to disturb and let the graft wound heal.
That is , to me , what HEALING chamber is about. Its other function is to reduce moisture loss from the scion until it establishes a close living relationship with the root stock.

I am still way down the learning curve

BigVanVader · February 10, 2017

So far all of mine appear to be fine. They are inside, bout 70 degrees. So far I haven't needed to mist again. I stuck my RS tops in pre-fert DE and so far all but one looks good so it would be great if I can get a second round outta them. It will be another week or so before I can graft anymore. Waiting on my RS to get bigger. I used all but 2 of my first sowing and 2 left are small and short so I put them on the shelf 2 rows under my lights so they should stretch and may put them on a heating pad.

Gardeneer according to multiple studies I have read the grafts should be healed in 6-10 days. Quote from Purdue.

"Depending on the plants’ growth stage at the time they are grafted,
plants should be ready to grow in normal greenhouse
conditions six to 10 days after grafting."
The first 48 hours after grafting is the most critical time
for graft healing — the grafted plants will form new vascular
cambium during this period. Immediately after
grafting, it is helpful to mist them with water from a
spray bottle — this can help prevent them from wilting
immediately. Promptly place newly grafted plants in an
environment that has a relative humidity between 85
and 95 percent and temperature between 72°F and 85°F
— keep them in this environment for the first 48 to 72
hours.

How much the no/few roots affects this I cant say. Soaking the scions in water as Delerium suggested eliminates the need to spray them so I'd ignore that step. I'm thinking I need to move my first 3 grafts into a different HC now so I can start introducing air more often.

BigVanVader · February 10, 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by txtstorm

Thanks, BVV. I guess I hadn't paid attention to that detail. Glad to hear yours are looking good. Most of mine are looking good this morning too. I'm going to feel like such a jedi if this actually works.

Ok, I'll bite. May the force be with you young Jedi

BigVanVader · February 10, 2017

Well, bad news. I got home today and all my grafts were wilted. I'm not sure if it got to dry, not enough air or what. I sprayed water and let the 2 earlier grafts stay out of the chamber for a bit. Should I return the 4 day old grafts to the chamber or ? Kinda bummed. I thought the grafts from yesterday were much more secure and the cuts were perfect. Here are the 4 day grafts looking sad.

Gardeneer · February 10, 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigVanVader

Well, bad news. I got home today and all my grafts were wilted. I'm not sure if it got to dry, not enough air or what. I sprayed water and let the 2 earlier grafts stay out of the chamber for a bit. Should I return the 4 day old grafts to the chamber or ? Kinda bummed. I thought the grafts from yesterday were much more secure and the cuts were perfect. Here are the 4 day grafts looking sad.

Hmm !
mine (after 45 hours) looks a bit droopy too. I think this happened after I opened the chamber for about an hour.

Now I misted and closed the chamber.
here it is. What do you think ?

b54red · February 10, 2017

Don't panic yet guys. It is normal for a slight bit of wilting and what you showed me isn't that bad. Mist the chamber a bit and close it tight for a few hours than check them and see if they have improved some. If they haven't close it back up tight and wait til the end of the third day and check again. Eventually you will see some improvement or some further wilting. If the later happens pick the graft up and hold it up to a strong light so you can see through the silicon graft and see if it has separated. If it has not then you can just leave the chamber cracked for another day or so then give the graft a drink. I have taken grafts out of the chamber and set them aside after thinking they were total flops and had them still recover a few days or even a week later. They aren't totally done until you see that the graft has separated or that the scion has shriveled up and died.

You know how the batch that was left open yesterday in the greenhouse when it got way too hot and I thought a lot of them were gonna be flops? Well when I went out and checked around noon today they looked fine. The ones in the closed chamber that were done on the 6th seemed in much worse shape when I checked on them so I misted them and put the top back on. I am going to go out in my greenhouse in a bit and crack the lid good on the ones done 4 days ago and remove the lid on the ones done 6 days ago. I'll take a picture and post it later tonight of all three chambers if I can get enough light or get my flash to work on my phone.

Oh another thing that was mentioned in one of the posts above about the temperature for the chamber. I find that temps in the 60s will produce much less wilting but it may take longer for them to heal completely. I'm just not sure but I do know that I have far more failures when the temps are above 70 than when they are below 70. This only makes sense to me as tomatoes grow much faster when it is warm than when it is cold so maybe that makes sense. If your chamber is a bit warmer than mine then it may just be getting a bit more wilting just like I got when it was too hot yesterday in my greenhouse but most seem to have recovered overnight in the cold greenhouse. I had the air conditioner on all day in the greenhouse today so maybe I didn't get any further wilting in any of the chambers.

Talk to y'all in a bit.

Bill

rick9748 · February 11, 2017

Just Google tomato grafting and go to the sites that are from Universities Ag Departments.You can get a 1, 2, 3 step outline of exactly what to do each day of the process.Check out; Vegetable Grafting Information web site, Grafting for disease resistance in heirloom tomatoes ;North Carolina State University cooperative extension.

Gardeneer · February 11, 2017

Thanks for the assurance, Bill.
Last night after misting, I covered the chamber, went to bed.
This morning when I woke up , I checked. It perked right up. I think it needed some darkness to rest, just as I did.

BVV, I hope yours are doing ok too. Mine is just educational but I don't like to learn from failure, but rather from the help that I get here. The next batch I will do a few more. This time I should get myself proper supplies. I will be using Big Beef as RS again. That is the closest thing that I have.

b54red · February 11, 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Thanks for the assurance, Bill.
Last night after misting, I covered the chamber, went to bed.
This morning when I woke up , I checked. It perked right up. I think it needed some darkness to rest, just as I did.

BVV, I hope yours are doing ok too. Mine is just educational but I don't like to learn from failure, but rather from the help that I get here. The next batch I will do a few more. This time I should get myself proper supplies. I will be using Big Beef as RS again. That is the closest thing that I have.

Wow somebody that gets up earlier than me.

I haven't gone out and checked to see how mine are doing this morning but I did take some pictures last night in the greenhouse after 10pm. The first picture shows the grafts done on the 4th that were left in the chamber yesterday but widely cracked so they were exposed to the drier air from being in the air conditioned greenhouse all day. Our humidity also dropped to under 40% which is rare. This seems to have caused more wilting again so I gave them a drink of water and put the lid back on them. Once it gets light enough I will check them again. They have been in a chamber for nearly 7 days now and it is getting near time to open them up and see how many can survive but it is supposed to be around 80 today so the air conditioner will be going full blast all day. I may move them onto the porch so they aren't exposed to the blowing air and see how many survive with the lid off.

2nd pic shows the ones done on the 6th and they will be cracked today which will be a bit latter than usual but after the heat of the other day I thought they needed one more day in the closed container. I see one graft that is showing some definite scion wilting, the one at the far upper left.

3rd pic shows the ones done on the 8th. I will move them into stronger lighted area in the greenhouse and keep them closed one more day before cracking them. They still look really good so far but then they usually do this early in the process.

Bill

BigVanVader · February 11, 2017

Mine seemed to have perked back up. I think I let it get too dry. I also removed a leaf from the worst looking plant and it looks better. Fingers crossed.

BigVanVader · February 11, 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick9748

Just Google tomato grafting and go to the sites that are from Universities Ag Departments.You can get a 1, 2, 3 step outline of exactly what to do each day of the process.Check out; Vegetable Grafting Information web site, Grafting for disease resistance in heirloom tomatoes ;North Carolina State University cooperative extension.

Those guidelines don't really apply completely because we are grafting with the no/few roots method so the plants have to regrow roots before they can be moved from the healing chamber.

txtstorm · February 11, 2017

Ok, I think things are going well on my end. I just took the ones that I grafted last Saturday out of the healing chamber (I've got two chambers, one for darkness and one that I have lit). We'll see if they wilt. I've been weaning them off the humidity for the last couple days.

My second round I did 3 days ago seems to be doing great too. No wilting at all and I've now got them in the low light chamber. They all look good. I think letting the plants get larger with a little thicker stem makes a big difference.

Also....I went kind of mad scientist yesterday and tried a triple graft.

I've got plenty of plants that are getting a little large, so I figured wth. I side grafted (tongue method) a Texas Wild Cherry to a Pink Berkeley Tie Die. I then top grafted a German Johnson on top of the Texas Wild Cherry. LOL! I don't know if the plant would even support the GJs, but it's an experiment afterall. The triple plant looks good as of this morning. Just wanted to see if it would take. I did some other side grafts just to get some practice.

I'll try to get some pictures up this weekend.

Good luck everyone! Thanks for creating this thread. It's good to know others are out there doing unholy experiments with nature too.

Hoosier · February 11, 2017

Looks like everyone is doing great! It must be up to me to show people what not to do.

b54red · February 11, 2017

The ones in the first pic looked better after the drink last night and closing the chamber back. I took that chamber outside this morning and completely removed the lid but placed it so it won't get any direct sunlight until mid afternoon. I will check it every few hours to see how many wilt. I expect some to wilt with the wind blowing even if they are protected by the sides of the chamber from the worst of it. If I see severe wilting I will put them back in the greenhouse and see if they recover but if only a few wilt badly I will leave them out and hope some of those will eventually recover.

The grafts in the second photo above also were placed in the same partially shaded spot and I cracked the lid.

The first batch of grafts that I did on the 31st of Jan. are outside in the sun. They are starting to show a bit of growth now.

Bill

February 10, 2017	#122
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,915	OBSERVATION: If after, say, a day or two Scion is alive ( No signs of wilting) that perhaps indicates that it is getting food/moisture from the RS. That in turn also indicates that RS is also getting photosynthesis from the scion. So all is needed is not to disturb and let the graft wound heal. That is , to me , what HEALING chamber is about. Its other function is to reduce moisture loss from the scion until it establishes a close living relationship with the root stock. I am still way down the learning curve __________________ Gardeneer Happy Gardening !

February 11, 2017	#129
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,915	Thanks for the assurance, Bill. Last night after misting, I covered the chamber, went to bed. This morning when I woke up , I checked. It perked right up. I think it needed some darkness to rest, just as I did. BVV, I hope yours are doing ok too. Mine is just educational but I don't like to learn from failure, but rather from the help that I get here. The next batch I will do a few more. This time I should get myself proper supplies. I will be using Big Beef as RS again. That is the closest thing that I have. __________________ Gardeneer Happy Gardening !

February 11, 2017	#133
txtstorm Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 54	Ok, I think things are going well on my end. I just took the ones that I grafted last Saturday out of the healing chamber (I've got two chambers, one for darkness and one that I have lit). We'll see if they wilt. I've been weaning them off the humidity for the last couple days. My second round I did 3 days ago seems to be doing great too. No wilting at all and I've now got them in the low light chamber. They all look good. I think letting the plants get larger with a little thicker stem makes a big difference. Also....I went kind of mad scientist yesterday and tried a triple graft. I've got plenty of plants that are getting a little large, so I figured wth. I side grafted (tongue method) a Texas Wild Cherry to a Pink Berkeley Tie Die. I then top grafted a German Johnson on top of the Texas Wild Cherry. LOL! I don't know if the plant would even support the GJs, but it's an experiment afterall. The triple plant looks good as of this morning. Just wanted to see if it would take. I did some other side grafts just to get some practice. I'll try to get some pictures up this weekend. Good luck everyone! Thanks for creating this thread. It's good to know others are out there doing unholy experiments with nature too. Last edited by txtstorm; February 11, 2017 at 10:01 AM.

February 10, 2017	#121
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	You know how I said it only takes one mistake to mess up a batch of plants. The ones I did on the 4th were looking good and it was supposed to be cool today with highs barely getting out of the 50s. The day started out that way with a cold wind so I didn't turn on my air conditioner in my greenhouse. I had to run some errands and when I got back I realized it had gotten really hot. I went out and checked the greenhouse and it was like an oven. It looks like I am going to lose quite a few out of that chamber that was open so I misted them and closed the lid and turned on the air to try and get it cooler. I will let you know tomorrow how bad it is. Bill

February 10, 2017	#123
BigVanVader Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Greenville, South Carolina Posts: 3,099	So far all of mine appear to be fine. They are inside, bout 70 degrees. So far I haven't needed to mist again. I stuck my RS tops in pre-fert DE and so far all but one looks good so it would be great if I can get a second round outta them. It will be another week or so before I can graft anymore. Waiting on my RS to get bigger. I used all but 2 of my first sowing and 2 left are small and short so I put them on the shelf 2 rows under my lights so they should stretch and may put them on a heating pad. Gardeneer according to multiple studies I have read the grafts should be healed in 6-10 days. Quote from Purdue. "Depending on the plants’ growth stage at the time they are grafted, plants should be ready to grow in normal greenhouse conditions six to 10 days after grafting." The first 48 hours after grafting is the most critical time for graft healing — the grafted plants will form new vascular cambium during this period. Immediately after grafting, it is helpful to mist them with water from a spray bottle — this can help prevent them from wilting immediately. Promptly place newly grafted plants in an environment that has a relative humidity between 85 and 95 percent and temperature between 72°F and 85°F — keep them in this environment for the first 48 to 72 hours. How much the no/few roots affects this I cant say. Soaking the scions in water as Delerium suggested eliminates the need to spray them so I'd ignore that step. I'm thinking I need to move my first 3 grafts into a different HC now so I can start introducing air more often.

February 10, 2017	#127
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	Don't panic yet guys. It is normal for a slight bit of wilting and what you showed me isn't that bad. Mist the chamber a bit and close it tight for a few hours than check them and see if they have improved some. If they haven't close it back up tight and wait til the end of the third day and check again. Eventually you will see some improvement or some further wilting. If the later happens pick the graft up and hold it up to a strong light so you can see through the silicon graft and see if it has separated. If it has not then you can just leave the chamber cracked for another day or so then give the graft a drink. I have taken grafts out of the chamber and set them aside after thinking they were total flops and had them still recover a few days or even a week later. They aren't totally done until you see that the graft has separated or that the scion has shriveled up and died. You know how the batch that was left open yesterday in the greenhouse when it got way too hot and I thought a lot of them were gonna be flops? Well when I went out and checked around noon today they looked fine. The ones in the closed chamber that were done on the 6th seemed in much worse shape when I checked on them so I misted them and put the top back on. I am going to go out in my greenhouse in a bit and crack the lid good on the ones done 4 days ago and remove the lid on the ones done 6 days ago. I'll take a picture and post it later tonight of all three chambers if I can get enough light or get my flash to work on my phone. Oh another thing that was mentioned in one of the posts above about the temperature for the chamber. I find that temps in the 60s will produce much less wilting but it may take longer for them to heal completely. I'm just not sure but I do know that I have far more failures when the temps are above 70 than when they are below 70. This only makes sense to me as tomatoes grow much faster when it is warm than when it is cold so maybe that makes sense. If your chamber is a bit warmer than mine then it may just be getting a bit more wilting just like I got when it was too hot yesterday in my greenhouse but most seem to have recovered overnight in the cold greenhouse. I had the air conditioner on all day in the greenhouse today so maybe I didn't get any further wilting in any of the chambers. Talk to y'all in a bit. Bill

February 11, 2017	#128
rick9748 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: south carolina Posts: 175	Just Google tomato grafting and go to the sites that are from Universities Ag Departments.You can get a 1, 2, 3 step outline of exactly what to do each day of the process.Check out; Vegetable Grafting Information web site, Grafting for disease resistance in heirloom tomatoes ;North Carolina State University cooperative extension.

February 11, 2017	#131
BigVanVader Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Greenville, South Carolina Posts: 3,099	Mine seemed to have perked back up. I think I let it get too dry. I also removed a leaf from the worst looking plant and it looks better. Fingers crossed.

February 11, 2017	#134
Hoosier Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Indiana Posts: 97	Looks like everyone is doing great! It must be up to me to show people what not to do.

February 11, 2017	#135
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	The ones in the first pic looked better after the drink last night and closing the chamber back. I took that chamber outside this morning and completely removed the lid but placed it so it won't get any direct sunlight until mid afternoon. I will check it every few hours to see how many wilt. I expect some to wilt with the wind blowing even if they are protected by the sides of the chamber from the worst of it. If I see severe wilting I will put them back in the greenhouse and see if they recover but if only a few wilt badly I will leave them out and hope some of those will eventually recover. The grafts in the second photo above also were placed in the same partially shaded spot and I cracked the lid. The first batch of grafts that I did on the 31st of Jan. are outside in the sun. They are starting to show a bit of growth now. Bill