Who says heirlooms aren't productive?

[joseph]

I grow around 70 species of edible plants. Tomatoes to me are just another species. I don't appreciate the taste of many of the crops that I grow. I devote a bit of extra time and space to tomatoes because they are popular and sell well. Eventually, I may develop a strain of tomatoes for people that don't like tomatoes...

Promiscuous pollination is the alternative to hybrids, heirlooms, and stable-OPs.

I acknowledge that the Internet myth is that tomatoes don't get inbreeding depression, but the primary literature (written in peer-reviewed journals by scientists that have actually measured) suggests yields are depressed on average around 40%.

[joseph]

Promiscuous pollination allows my plants to continuously adapt to changing conditions. That is more valuable to me than having a clone of a tomato that my great-great grandfather grew 154 years ago when he planted his first garden in my village. The higher rates of crossing that I can achieve, the more likely I am to find families that really thrive here. And that thriving doesn't stop just because they are crossing with other families that also thrive here.

By using promiscuous pollination I am constantly creating hybrid vigor. That saves me the labor or expense of making or buying hybrid seeds for their increased productivity. I value the power of promiscuous pollination more than I value stability.

My tomatillos are 100% out-crossing. They grow great for me. They always taste like tomatillos. They always produce an abundance of ripe fruits long before the arrival of fall frosts. Wish it was that easy to adapt tomatoes to my growing conditions.

[tam91]

Originally Posted by joseph

I grow around 70 species of edible plants. Tomatoes to me are just another species. I don't appreciate the taste of many of the crops that I grow. I devote a bit of extra time and space to tomatoes because they are popular and sell well. Eventually, I may develop a strain of tomatoes for people that don't like tomatoes...

Promiscuous pollination is the alternative to hybrids, heirlooms, and stable-OPs.

I acknowledge that the Internet myth is that tomatoes don't get inbreeding depression, but the primary literature (written in peer-reviewed journals by scientists that have actually measured) suggests yields are depressed on average around 40% in OP and heirloom tomatoes.

I don't know, personally, re. tomatoes and inbreeding - hence why I am hoping that Carolyn will perhaps comment, as she has the scientific background to do so.

However, as they say, correlation does not imply causation - so even if correct that hybrids are more productive, that does not prove that the reason is inbreeding. There could be many reasons contributing to that, including possible disease resistance. Also, since the hybrids are deliberately bred (selected) for production (among other things), I would not be surprised to see increased production for that reason, as opposed to inbreeding.

[RJGlew]

Joseph, please tread lightly [unnecessary content removed]. It is unfortunate that the internet allows groups to believe they can trump scientific evidence with anecdotal stories laced with heaping helpings of confirmation bias. As a true Canadian, I must apologize for causing a stir and I won't post again in this group.

[joseph]

I tend to tread lightly in this forum, and to post my most interesting work and opinions in other places... I don't know how I got involved in an heirloom vs commercial-hybrids conversation when I dislike both...

[tam91]

Wow. I am sad that what I meant to just be a happy thread turned into this. Kind of unusual for this forum.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by tam91

Wow. I am sad that what I meant to just be a happy thread turned into this. Kind of unusual for this forum.

Tracy it isn't your fault, dont worry about it.

Worth

[joseph]

I suppose to reply directly to the title of the thread... Joseph Lofthouse says that heirlooms aren't productive in his garden. If you want to know why he believes that, ask in a private message, or on a different thread or forum...



tam91: Congratulations of growing some productive looking tomato plants....

[tam91]

Thanks.

[jhp]

Back to those lovely pictures. Tam, I'm still highly impressed with your tomatoes. I've grown Brad's Black Heart and it did not produce for me like that. I am now intrigued by George Detsikas Italian Red. I'll have to look into that for next year. Thanks for posting your pictures. Kudos again!

Jen

[tam91]

Thank you

Please check out George Detsikas - I introduced that one, and have a free SASE offer open if you are interested.

[joseph]

Originally Posted by tam91

Please check out George Detsikas - I introduced that one, and have a free SASE offer open if you are interested.

What's the back story behind George Detsikas?

[Misfit]

Nice looking toms!

-Jimmy

[jhp]

Originally Posted by tam91

Thank you

Please check out George Detsikas - I introduced that one, and have a free SASE offer open if you are interested.

Oh yeah, I'm interested! They look great!

Jen

[tam91]

The story behind GDIR - an "old Italian man" brought the seeds from Italy, and George Detsikas grew them in Canada for 25 years or more. After he passed on, I obtained seeds from his last year via a friend of his daughter's, grew them out, and am offering them for a SASE. If you look on Tatiana's Tomatobase you can see more photos. I think I have a thread on T-ville with photos also.

For me, they have been my earliest large tomatoes 2 years in a row, and are large and meaty, with a very good taste.