Renaming heirloom tomatoes?

[livinonfaith]

I was just reading a response from Penny of Penny's tomatoes and didn't want to Highjack the thread. I just had to ask others what they felt about this.

From Penny's response:

"The 4 Tomato varieties that you question with my name on it are Family heirlooms that go back at least 5 Decades....probably a lot longer from our farm in Arizona.
They may have been Hybrids way back in the day...I don't know..but as you know once a variety has been grown for 8 growing seasons it officially becomes a new variety of tomato.
These 4 varieties are Family Heirlooms that mean a lot to us for many reasons.
We also checked from a legal perspective and we're good to go.
I do need to stand by the name of these tomatoes.
Thanks again for the call out."

I'm not questioning whether or not she should use her names. If they have been open pollinated for five decades and they have been selected for particular traits over those years, then they may differ enough to be called by another name. I don't really know.

My question has to do with the statement, "but as you know once a variety has been grown for 8 growing seasons it officially becomes a new variety of tomato."

I don't agree at all with that statement. My thought is that if the tomato still retains it's original characteristics, it is still the same tomato and should not be renamed.

If it differs in one significant way, such as color, then the name would change to reflect that, if possible. Like Cherokee Purple produced Cherokee Chocolate, and Cherokee Green. So you still have a clear link to the lineage.

My thought is that only if there are significant variations, should there be a complete name change.

To me, it only makes sense that if it is grown from Hybrid seed to become a stable OP variety that it should be (variety name) OP. So an Early Girl that has been stabilized as an OP would be Early Girl OP. But I suspect that isn't legal or practical, since there would likely be many many people doing the exact same thing and there would be a thousand Early Girl OP varieties out there.
So what would you call it? Are we doomed to have thousands of variations of Penny's Early Girl, Paige's Early Girl, Big Bob's Early Girly Boy, ect. .......All bred from the same tomato, and none of which is significantly different?

What are your thoughts? (I hope Carolyn feels better soon, because I know she would have some interesting things to say.)

[nctomatoman]

Good discussion point.

My thoughts is that a hybrid is a hybrid and gets named - Lemon Boy, Big Boy, etc.

If someone wants to create a stable OP version, the typical work ensues - growing out seed saved from the hybrid - as many as possible - and if something is found that is very similar to the hybrid, seed is saved from it....the next season the process continues. Eventually, given enough generations, it appears to be stable and can then be named.

But to avoid confusion, it really does need a new/different name. Maybe the name of the family or developer - let's say someone works with Lemon Boy and after years of work, ends up with a stable OP that appears to be the same. If it is Bill Jones, maybe it becomes Bill's Lemon Boy, or Jones Lemon Boy - or maybe even Lemon Delight - or whatever.

But if the OP is named Lemon Boy, then it opens the door for lots of confusion - especially because some catalogs/seed listings don't make it clear if varieties are OP or hybrids.

In fact, looking through the SSE yearbook, part of the mess that is the tomato section are so many hybrid varieties being listed there - so it is assumed they are OP...but can we be sure? Lots of people are saving seed with all sorts of levels of experience and expertise.

Just my two cents!

[Mischka]

[livinonfaith]

So Big Bob's Early Girly Boy, it is!

(Mischka, Are you implying that I've opened a can of worms? Didn't really mean to, but I'll get my broomstick ready, just in case. Fortunately, I don't have to use it for self defense, I can just jump on it and fly away. )

[Mudman]

But what if you grow out a hybrid and do not select similar traits to the original. Then I think it should have a new name. JMO.

[nctomatoman]

Actually, I like the idea of using a completely different name! (to avoid the Walton's naming convention, as you demonstrated!).

So instead of Betty Sue's Lemon Boy....call it Canary....or Goldfinch....or whatever!

[Farmette]

Just recently bought Big Beef Hybrid and Big Beef OP; so am I correct in saying that you think the OP version should have a different name?

[fortyonenorth]

Originally Posted by livinonfaith

My question has to do with the statement, "but as you know once a variety has been grown for 8 growing seasons it officially becomes a new variety of tomato."

I imagine Penny was referring to the number of generations to take a variety from f1 to stable OP. I don't know if 8 generations is a hard and fast rule, but it sounds about right.

[Mudman]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

But if the OP is named Lemon Boy, then it opens the door for lots of confusion - especially because some catalogs/seed listings don't make it clear if varieties are OP or hybrids.

I agree Craig, but what bothers me about naming a variety something like Early Girl OP, is that it implies that it is identical to EG but an OP. Genetics are very complex and I find it hard to believe that the OP is the same as the Hybrid. Similar maybe, but not the same.

[livinonfaith]

This really is a complex issue at heart.

On one hand, you don't want to confuse even a slightly changed tomato with it's parent's name, as you want to preserve the original characteristics. But it really becomes confusing if you create a brand new name for each and every tomato that is, say, five percent different on one characteristic, like weight, earliness, or color.

You could just continually choose tomatoes that are a bit outside the expected characteristics and present it as a "new" variety, couldn't you?

[simmran1]

With soooo many new, and re-birth seed companies, (like Gleckler's), being in the business to satisfy the customer with honest practices, and worthy seeds; Penny’s and others that resort to less than straight forward dealings can (and will) find business from the less informed. I must say though Penny Mahoney has made remarkable ‘back to the Future’ name changes to the original in her online selections.

THIS is one of the great reasons to be a Tomatovillian, where the truly dedicated gardener can come to learn and interact.

When a difference occurs from what’s known of a variety/name correlation, at harvest or leaf type- is to give an off shoot temporary difference type of name to distinguish.

For example, to me Pink Floyd is a brand new (probably pink) variety that I have no correlation with. Whereas Brandy Boy O-P tells me this is similar in plant and fruit to Burpee’s Brandy Boy hybrid.

My 2 Penny’s is; I’m used to the O-P designation at the affix. so that I know what to expect. - Randy

[muck4doo]

It was my question she responded to, so I can comment my 2 cents. I wanted to make sure she wasn't just re-naming well known varieties like she did when she started. She says that isn't the case. At this point I just have to take her word for it. The reason I will is when the criticism was leveled at her here, she didn't get all mad about it. To me it looks like she has tried to correct things. When I saw the four "Penny" toms it did raise my eye brow like Spock though. That's why I delved her for more info. Maybe she wants to be remembered like Aunt Ruby, and Aunt Ginny. I don't know. But I am going to try that Penny Persimmon next year to see if it really is different. Who knows? Maybe it is, and one of the best gosh darnoodley toms available. Or maybe it's just like any other Persimmon tom. We'll see. She knows the score either way, so that is why I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt.

[stormymater]

I totally agree Randy

[Heritage]

There are a few other opinions in this post:
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=20255

Steve

[livinonfaith]

Thanks for the link Steve. There seems to be agreement with Craig's opinion.

By the way, although I based my discussion on a statement of Penny's, I'm not questioning her naming of her tomatoes. She says they are different from other varieties and I don't have any reason not to believe her. The more that we discuss the issue, the more I realize that a new name is appropriate if there are significant changes.

I just didn't agree with the idea that a tomato automatically becomes a new variety after you've grown it for eight seasons. (and I was also curious whether there were any standards in the tomato community about names)

As fortyonenorth says, Penny may have been referring to the time it takes to stabilize a hybrid back to an OP. That certainly makes more sense to me than the the literal meaning of the original statement.

In any event, this wasn't meant to be an attack on Penny. Just disagreeing with and trying to form a discussion around one statement of hers that caught my attention.