What to do with Verde Claro Tomato variety

[Tom Wagner]

Verde Claro.

More than I already know in addition to my thinking it's one of the best varieties I've ever grown

Carolyn,

The General Discussion Forum is the most heavily visited site on Tomatoville.com. This is a better site than Crosstalk to share our discourse about Verde Claro. Others may certainly chime in. I wish to thank you, Carolyn, for your continued enthusiasm for this tomato.

Negotiations to get Verde Claro out to the public are underway, but it is snail paced at best. One international seed company who owns a seed company that strictly wholesales tomato seed to seed catalogs is still in contention.

Second effort.
A Bio-Dynamics style corporation has asked me to merge my Tater-Mater name with theirs. They claim that tomatoes are the largest legal cash crop in the future, provided flavor is addressed. My varieties would be grown on a soil media composed of vermicultured manures and composted green manures of spelt, comfrey, stinging nettle, and alfalfa grown on never before farmed volcanic soils. The idea is to grow these in organic greenhouses where high levels of minerals, micro-organisms, and organic matter would equate in even higher flavors and nutrition. I submitted information for a website construct featuring my work. This is still not a sure thing yet.

Third effort.
A Material Transfer Agreement with a research facility that would offer licensing controls in a Hybrid Verde Claro.

One or more of these efforts could work, or they could all fail.

Verde Claro, for those who don't know,(how is that possible?) is a green when ripe cherry tomato similar to Green Grape tomatoes but with a clear epidermis. For nearly 15 years folks have marveled at the flavor, but the variety and it's closely related clones have not been released.

Tom Wagner

[carolyn137]

I wish to thank you, Carolyn, for your continued enthusiasm for this tomato.

******

My pleasure Tom, and there would lots and lots of other folks who would also love it if, and I say if......they had access to the seeds.

I read your options:

The International Seed Co.

The Biodynamic Co ( is that one in CA)

The Hybrid Verde Claro scenario.

Well, I've got a fourth, which I prefer and we've discussed it before.

Any well known primarily tomato seed source company that has a great reputation and for me tht would include Tomato Growers, Sandhill Preservation, Victory Seeds, Heirloom Seeds and a few more.

I know very well that you deserve money back from your breeding efforts, but I also feel that many who grow tomatoes these days don't even know who you are except for Green Grape, Green Zebra and a couple of others.

So I'm going to lobby you again, to set aside just this one time, considerations about money and make available thru one or more of the companies that sell OP seed to the public at least this one variety called Verde Claro.

my thinking is that you have many others that also haven't been released and as you know I've trialed several of them for you. I'm of the opinion that if you get Verde Claro out there in the public domain that your name will once again be known to many. You have I can't tell you how many other varieties that you could explore with the options you posted above.

Please consider it Tom. You and I are not that far apart in age, and I would dearly like to see some of your tomato germplasm out there to be enjoyed by the tomato obsessed folks who really matter to you and me and quite a few others.

Yes, I know all of your arguments against making Verde Claro available as an OP for retail sale thru companies such as those I mentioned above, and no doubt you'll state them again, but that doesn't stop me one bit re trying to change your mind about this.

And I hope that those who might post in this thread will also encourage you to make Verde Claro seeds available as an OP via one or more retail outlets.

I suppose an exclusive to one of them might be best, and as you know I've also suggested to you which one I think might be best to start with.

[PeteD]

Tom, I have to agree with alanstrangefruit, and say that Caroline's opinion or Option A, if you feel you must benefit financially would be the way to go.

I do think Caroline is on the right track. I do not know enough about this tomato in particular and tomato genetics in general to say for sure, but I don't think you can avoid people trying to create an OP version (if released as a hybrid) and trading seeds amongst themselves within a couple of years after release - if the tomato is that good. Now maybe the OP would not be as good as the hybrid and you could have a Sun Gold tomato, where people will be willing to pay for the hybrid because the de-hybridized OP doesn't measure up. But, even if OP, if the tomato is that good, you should be able to entice some people who are too lazy to save or trade seeds to buy them.

I honestly have no idea how much you could stand to make following the path of Option B or C, but that is for you to determine.

Maybe you can reap some benefit for releasing a great tomato (based on Caroline's assessment) and creating a larger name for yourself. Frankly, all I know about you is what I have read here.

I would just like the opportunity to try it. I will be growing Green Grape this year.

Regards,
Pete

[greggf]

Tom,

No matter what you choose to do, I'm glad you'll see a financial reward for your efforts.

There's some kind of odd undercurrent in today's society (a sense of narcissistic entitlement?) whereby people seem to think that an individual's creative efforts should be free or nearly free to the public.

I'm thinking of internet music/file sharing/downloading here.

Make sure you get paid for your "songs"!!

=gregg=

[GrowSeeds]

Tom I do not know of your work except what you have posted here and to my posts about stuffer tomatoes.

Having said that and not giving advice here but what sounds good to me.

Option A and Carolyn's sound good to me

Option B - sounds like MEGER - You might/could also consider licensing agreement - with an big advance up front with royalities and open books- a line to to them call it something like Wagner's Tater-Mater Varieties. I would read and read the details in this one to see who really owns what upon meger and what would revert back to you if the venture did not work.

Option C I don't understand that much.

Tom these are just some thoughts. Wish you luck with whichever one you want to do.

Here's something I wrote reminds me of you as a breeder:
The Fairytale Tomatoes

Once upon a time in a secluded part of the world lived a cultivator. He loved to go out into his garden and look at all the things growing. The plants of food the plants of fragrance and the flight of hummingbirds and the animals that took from his garden with out asking, But he loved his tomatoes the best and with the help of nature worked to create as many varieties of tomatoes as he could to give refreshing tastes to the world. And as time went by as his plants became a variety he was begining to think about giving them names as they where growing up in the world. Many days and nights he thought about names. Names of people, names of places, names of science and names of numbers. Then one day while walking in his garden he began speaking to them asking what would you like to be called. As he walked towards a very small tomato fruit plant he heard whispers of "we are tales of taste that all will see as different, we are the fairytale to their tastes". The cultivator then began naming the different types by myths of the fairytales. This one so small and sweet with a little tartness to its taste he called Pixie and this one so large and quenched his thirst he called Elf. And so begin the naming of tomatoes to a fairytale of names.

The moral of this tale is you breed them and Good Luck with them.

[michael johnson]

What exactly is a Verde Claro tomato, regarding size, taste, plant type etc, as most of us have never heard of it, -it would be nice to have a pre-view of the variety, including possible photo's.

[Tom Wagner]

First of all, allow me to thank all of you for your input.

I talk different than I write, I think different than I talk or write; I react to what I read, but it is hard for me to adequately respond skillfully to all of the above posts. It will never be me saying "My Good" as I can only proclaim "My Bad"!!!!!!

Goaded in no small part by the esteemed Carolyn, I am willing to re-investigate the potential release of my creation of Verde Claro. Upon taking the extra responsibilities of being a moderator on CROSSTALK, I feel and sense the need to be inform people more fully on my experience with tomatoes, especially the crossing work.

My options on releasing Verde Claro in some fashion may be fodder for thought in the coming weeks. My descriptions of it and the related populations will be more colorful. My naming conventions will be shared, much of it as one would name a pet, a cow, or a friend.

I will share a few more details in the ontogeny of the pedigree and segregation.

Tom Wagner

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by michael johnson

What exactly is a Verde Claro tomato, regarding size, taste, plant type etc, as most of us have never heard of it, -it would be nice to have a pre-view of the variety, including possible photo's.

About the only way you would have known about it is from seeing me talk about it from time to time here and there.

As Tom has said, and me too, it has not been released. It was one of about 22 varieties I trialed for Tom back in the mid-90's and Craig was supposed to be doing the same from those same seeds I was sent.

Tom asked that I not distribute seeds, and I've honored that, other than sending seeds of Verde Claro to Craig, as I was supposed to do.

So no pictures are available, but Tom has described it and I'll do it again.

it's a cherry tomato, not round, slightly ovoid, a green when ripe type, but since it has a clear epidermis it doesn't get an amber blush as do most green when ripes.

Plant is indet and foliage RL.

The fruits look like frosted grapes and you just have to get used to knowing when they are ripe.

I find the taste to be outstanding, but Craig, growing it in Raleigh, is not as enthusiastic as I am about the taste. I've grown it several times just for keeping seed stock current; Craig has grown it once.

Time will tell how well others like it after Tom has facilitated it becoming available, but he also has found that many who have tasted it are as enthusiastic as I am.

Gregg, I certainly do agree that there should be compensation for ones efforts whether it's songs, paintings, breeding tomatoes, or whatever.

My point here is that Tom has not released/made available any of his newer varieties since the mid 90's. There's a whole generation of tomato growers who do not know who he is or what his contributions to the field have been.

All I'm asking for is that one, yes ONE, of the many varieties Tom already has, be made available to the public. And I'm suggesting that ONE be Verde Claro.

There are many many others that Tom has that he can negotiate terms for with his other options and thereby hopefully receive compensation.

My preference would be an OP Verde Claro, but a hybrid one would also be OK as long as the public had access to one or the other.

[GrowSeeds]

Carolyn have you tried the Verde Claro tomato as a pickling tomato in say a refig kosher type pickling? If so were they crisp? etc

[greggf]

Carolyn said,

"Gregg, I certainly do agree that there should be compensation for ones efforts whether it's songs, paintings, breeding tomatoes, or whatever.

My point here is that Tom has not released/made available any of his newer varieties since the mid 90's. There's a whole generation of tomato growers who do not know who he is or what his contributions to the field have been.

All I'm asking for is that one, yes ONE, of the many varieties Tom already has, be made available to the public. And I'm suggesting that ONE be Verde Claro.

There are many many others that Tom has that he can negotiate terms for with his other options and thereby hopefully receive compensation."


Yup! I understand and agree with you, Carolyn.

It would be a clever public relations move for Tom to send Verde Claro out there as a preview of "things Tom Wagner to come!"

Especially since it tastes great and has a unique (attention-getting) appearance.

=gregg=

[michael johnson]

Thanks, that gives me a basis rough idea of what to expect, and what to look for, it sounds just great, although I am a bit suprised that it is a cherry type- I was expecting it to be a larger type tomato.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by GrowSeeds

Carolyn have you tried the Verde Claro tomato as a pickling tomato in say a refig kosher type pickling? If so were they crisp? etc

Absolutely not

I wouldn't waste a terrific fresh tasting tomato like Verde Claro by pickling it.

[barkeater]

Whatever is most profitable for Tom's hard work should be the most important consideration. I would think Option 1 would be the best way to reach the widest audience and, so I would think, the highest chance for profit.

Lets face it, no matter how good Verde Claro is, it will be a hard sell to the general public to even try a green cherry tomato. For that reason, Options B and C seem the least profitable alternatives as they actually restrict the number of potential customers.

[carolyn137]

Lets face it, no matter how good Verde Claro is, it will be a hard sell to the general public to even try a green cherry tomato.

*****

Bark, it certainly wasn't a hard sell for the public to embrace Tom's Green Grape,a cherry tomato from the 80's that he bred, and as I said above, there are some things unique to Verde Claro.

One, is that while it's cherry sized, it's slightly ovoid, and second, it's unique in having that clear epidermis which gives a very different look to the fruits, and third, the taste is not the same as Green Grape; I think it's much better. Just my personal opinion at this point in time.

Tom, would you like me to write ad copy for you? After all, if you were to write it for Verde Claro it might be considered conflict of interest.

[mdvpc]

Tom- Green when ripe is very popular now-for all I know you may have started it with Green Grape-which I love. Now sounds like the right time to Verde Claro. Whatever you choose to do, I sure would like to grow and taste that tomato!