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Old May 17, 2013   #46
wmontanez
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I think Durgan that you are missing a great opportunity to learn from each other. I am glad people like Tom Wagner takes to respond since his work is breeding potatoes and not grow massive amounts for eating.

I saw your potato pictures and responded to your posting about Yukon Gold. I remember asking what was the soil composition since I wanted to improve yields as well. Anyway the post was : http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=27546

Not completely sure why you keep being a bit harsh in your comments but let's try something different. Instead I would like to challenge you to try one on the long season indeterminate potatoes that are available in Canada and see for yourself. Who knows? Maybe you will learn something also.
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Old May 17, 2013   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durgan View Post
http://www.durgan.org/URL/?QHBIN 21 August 2009 How a Potato Plant Grows

Simple folks! The container can be slammed together in about an hour or less. Digging at the end of the season takes about half an hour. Photo can be taken with those simple phone cameras. Then you can babble all you like one way of the other. Until then your argument is simply babble or empty rhetoric if you like. So far I am the only person presenting facts, real life if you like.
Actually Durgan what you presented as proof is anecdotal evidence at best. One variety, one box, one season, one plant, one person, one experience, one failure to achieve the objective of producing tubers all along the stem of a potato plant (if the effort was indeed objective). From your photos one might suspect that the variety of potato you used is incapable of such growth, that you are incapable of cultivating it or that it might require a bit more research and experimental design to determine. However, in the abscence of additional evidence your photos and your experiences do not justify coming to a conclusion that the objective can not be attained.
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Old May 17, 2013   #48
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Originally Posted by RebelRidin View Post
Actually Durgan what you presented as proof is anecdotal evidence at best. One variety, one box, one season, one plant, one person, one experience, one failure to achieve the objective of producing tubers all along the stem of a potato plant (if the effort was indeed objective). From your photos one might suspect that the variety of potato you used is incapable of such growth, that you are incapable of cultivating it or that it might require a bit more research and experimental design to determine. However, in the abscence of additional evidence your photos and your experiences do not justify coming to a conclusion that the objective can not be attained.
Pretty good proof. Separated out so one can see the growth pattern. Any comparison to anecdotal support is faulty reasoning. Ther is\was a whole row of hilled similar potatoes in the same row. Plus 100 or thereabout of various types typically hilled and nary a sign on any of them of vertical growth. I suggest you be grasping at straws and not studying the evidence carefully. Waiting for vertical growing potatoes, not a drawing or a pretty box.
http://www.durgan.org/URL/?QHBIN 21 August 2009 How a Potato Plant Grows
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Old May 17, 2013   #49
RebelRidin
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Pretty good proof. Separated out so one can see the growth pattern. Any comparison to anecdotal support is faulty reasoning. Ther is\was a whole row of hilled similar potatoes in the same row. Plus 100 or thereabout of various types typically hilled and nary a sign on any of them of vertical growth. I suggest you be grasping at straws and not studying the evidence carefully. Waiting for vertical growing potatoes, not a drawing or a pretty box.
http://www.durgan.org/URL/?QHBIN 21 August 2009 How a Potato Plant Grows

One man, one variety, one failure.. As I noted, with one replicate and one variety your observations can be nothing but anecdotal, demonstrating only your single experience. Thus they carry no wider meaning or significance. You see a positive observation or experience has meaning, it carries weight. A negative observation or experiece does not. There is no net information or knowledge gained.

No matter. I wish you success in your endeavors, contentment in your knowledge and that you enjoy your sour grapes along with your crow.
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Old May 17, 2013   #50
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Sorry for being slow but I just signed up....

There are determinate and indeterminate potatoes just like tomatoes? Is there a list somewhere of what varieties are what?
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Old May 17, 2013   #51
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All it will take is ONE success to prove Durgan wrong. I will take up the challenge. I have two potato bins. One planted with Peruvian Purple, which is a longer season, indeterminate type, though I do not know if it will form tubers off stolons. Those are already in the ground. The other one I hope to plant soon. I will take pictures and document.

All that needs to be shown is that this is possible to get potatoes to grow this way. Questions about yield, size and type are secondary because those things can always be selected for in the future.

My question is if I show pictures such as you posted, will you accept them as proof? Even those can be faked. I fear that the only proof that would convince you is to try it yourself with the appropriate potato.
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Old May 18, 2013   #52
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There is an epic lack of understanding of the way a potato grows showing up on this thread. Virtually all commercial potatoes are genetically incapable of producing multiple shoots with multiple spuds on the stolons. Tom has tried to show that there is a different type of potato that grows with a strong branching habit. I would refer to it as lateral branch fruitful because each new lateral branch that forms also has the ability to set new stolons with more spuds.

Durgan, you are correct re commercial varieties and how they grow. They do not form stolons that produce more plantlets. You are not correct in presuming that all potatoes are similar in habit. Azul Toro has the trait to some degree of producing stolons that produce new branches which then produce more spuds. I have watched as new branches emerged from the soil a foot or more from the parent plant.

Here are the potato varieties I am growing this year.

French Fingerling, Azul Toro, Chellan, Commercial Red, La Ratte, Muru, Handel, Boyde, Golfing Magic, Howie Mandel, Magic Colors, Deep Blush, Skagit Valley Gold, River Bend Red, Rosaro, Yungay, Bolivian Tree Top, Black Tom, Harry Kaighin, C97.007, Black Irish,

In addition to the above, I have 34 more hills of potatoes that are from spuds I saved from visiting Tom last fall and I have a full row of seedlings grown from TPS. Some of the seedlings look like they are going to be outstanding.

As for how much a single hill of potatoes can produce, well, there is a world record for that....

DarJones

Last edited by Fusion_power; May 18, 2013 at 12:27 AM.
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Old May 18, 2013   #53
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Explain please what you mean by this, as you made it seem as though you only grew three or so commercial types not 100 or so "types". By "types" do you mean "varieties" or do you grow more than 30 "types" of YUKON GOLD?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Durgan View Post
Plus 100 or thereabout of various types typically hilled and nary a sign on any of them of vertical growth.
http://www.durgan.org/URL/?QHBIN 21 August 2009 How a Potato Plant Grows
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Old May 18, 2013   #54
Durgan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanP View Post
All it will take is ONE success to prove Durgan wrong. I will take up the challenge. I have two potato bins. One planted with Peruvian Purple, which is a longer season, indeterminate type, though I do not know if it will form tubers off stolons. Those are already in the ground. The other one I hope to plant soon. I will take pictures and document.

All that needs to be shown is that this is possible to get potatoes to grow this way. Questions about yield, size and type are secondary because those things can always be selected for in the future.

My question is if I show pictures such as you posted, will you accept them as proof? Even those can be faked. I fear that the only proof that would convince you is to try it yourself with the appropriate potato.
The crux of the matter. The appropriate potato, similar to my unassuming test box.
"No, a proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." - Jean Chretien
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Old May 18, 2013   #55
Tom Wagner
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The provision of the so-called appropriate potato variety for the potato box.....that is a tall order. Since potato breeding has been devoted for field culture in rows, it is not surprising that readily available varieties for the potato box may not be easily found. A perfect tower adapted potato would have been dropped like a hot potato by breeders since it would have been anathema....banished at once!

This breeder does not normally get his varieties into the certification chain and even if temporarily available the varieties are not entered into a germplasm maintenance of any federal or local authority. In my 60 years of working with potato varieties I have probably witnessed a million or so clones pass by my eyes.

One would think the garden suppliers and catalogs would flock around my work with making garden friendly potatoes available, but that just hasn't been the case.
The up front costs would scare them away due to the economy of scale.

I think there is a market for specialty potatoes but I am unable to provide for that market...too busy with TPS, breeding, tomatoes, etc.


Quote:
Determinate potatoes flower once and produce one layer of potatoes, so they are not suitable for bin growing. Indeterminate potato varieties, which flower continuously throughout the growing season, are better for bin growing. Does this Spark an idea?
Bintje was mentioned, but I have some much more productive for a bin environment.

Read more: Potato Varieties for Bin Growing | eHow http://www.ehow.com/list_7461703_potato-varieties-bin-growing.html#ixzz2TecRJebd






I thought of Durban's appeal for a provable potato.
For Canada... looking for an appropriate variety…not perfect but a start with what may be available
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/plants/p.../1312587385790
McIntyre
Very late maturity
I had talked about this variety many years ago as a candidate for bins.
One must be open minded and look for what is locally available otherwise......

Jean Chretien's quote on PROOF seems to be a bit misapplied here on this forum...finding the perfect potato is a potential goal but no one proves a potato variety ....no matter how good it is. Trial and error...simple.

Quote:
"No, a proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."
Chrétien actually said a few things that made sense...paraphrased here...
Quote:
Sometimes our approaches are different. Sometimes it's a matter of different means of achieving common goals; sometimes it is because our interests are different. But we approach these differences with the honesty and mutual respect that a relationship like ours deserves. But the areas that bring us together are much greater than those that divide us. Working together, we are setting an example of international cooperation for the world.
Funny quotes from Jean Chretien...not that I am implying anything.....

Quote:
It's like the story of the Hippo and the Zerba. That Hippo, he paint the stripe on him to look like the Zerba. But at the end of that day he still a Hippo
—Jean Chrétien
Reminds me of a movie line....had to look it up...yes

Quote:
Zee heeppopotamoose, he is not born saying, "Cool beans. I am a heeppo." No way, Joesay. So he try to paint zee stripe on him to be like zee zebra, but he fool no one. Then he try to put zee spot on zee skin to be like the leopard, but everyboody know he is a heeppo. So, at certain point, he look himself in zee mirror and he just say, "Hey. I am a heeppopotamoose and zere is nothing I can do about it." As soon as he accepts zis, he live life happy. Happy as a heeppo. You understand zis, Luban?

Along Came Polly (2004)
Interesting word....proof....

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Old May 18, 2013   #56
Durgan
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The honkeys who have been filling gardening books full of vertically grown potatoes sure haven't been talking about particular types. When the internet became common, they put the same stuff on-line, yet nobody has ever seen a vertically grown bunch of potatoes. I am waiting as if the world.

It is simple, put a potato in as box and take pictures as it is harvested on a bright sunny day. Is that too much to ask? Like this.
http://www.durgan.org/URL/?QHBIN 21 August 2009 How a Potato Plant Grows

When I first became interested in growing quality potatoes, I couldn't even find anywhere how they grew. Why the hilling , etc?

TPS is to produce a new strain, which is a tedious process. Most TPS potatoes are crap. At least growing from seed tubers, (Clones) one can predict what will be produced.
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Old May 18, 2013   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wagner View Post
I thought of Durgan's appeal for a provable potato.
For Canada... looking for an appropriate variety…not perfect but a start with what may be available
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/plants/p.../1312587385790
McIntyre
Very late maturity
I had talked about this variety many years ago as a candidate for bins.
My only succesful TPS growing was from Durgan's "Russian Blue" in 2010, which produced two purple tubers. Unfortunately I wasn't able to grow the tubers, because my wife trashed them assuming dark potatoes must be diseased. Now I have some of Tom's TPS, and I hope my next experience is more positive.
To make the "experiment" more valid, Durgan could try McIntyre as suggested by Tom and possibly also some of Tom's TPS.
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Old May 18, 2013   #58
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Durgan, what exactly is your problem with the discussion going on here? No one has said that the garden writers with their potato boxes and 100 lbs of potatoes are telling the truth -- that it will work with normal cultivars. I don't think anyone here believes that crap any more than they believe in "Organic Tomato Magic". You can't seriously think that modern commercial potato varieties grown in Canada and the northern US are representative of all ancestral varieties grown in Peru and Chile. That is like saying that all tomatoes are round red determinant varieties. Do you want us to say that you are right, that all potatoes are grow exactly like the few commercial varieties that you have grown? It is safe to say that nearly all potatoes for commercial mechanized production grow like you show; those that don't are not around. People in this discussion are not growing or talkiing about those varieties, and they have had no reason to take pictures when digging their tubers. Taking a camera into a field of tomatoes is one thing but it is another when your back hurts and you ar covered in dirt. If you do not believe the word of a professional potato breeder you surely are not going to believe pictures that could easily be photoshopped.


"TPS is to produce a new strain, which is a tedious process. Most TPS potatoes are crap. At least growing from seed tubers, (Clones) one can predict what will be produced."


Producing a new clone of potatoes is less tedious than doing so for tomatoes or any other vegetable where seed is involved. You plant the true seed the first year, harvest the seed potatoes at the end of the season, weed out undesirable clones then, and plant production potatoes the second year, enough for a small row anyway to get a good idea of what you have. It takes you seven generations to stabilize a new tomato variety through selection. Potatoes take one or two generations to do the selections.

Most new clones are not crap. They may not be as good as the commercial varieties as far as shape and production, but most give at least moderate yields and have average flavor. People here are not trying to reinvent the wheel by making a better white chipping or russet baking potato in their back yard. They are trying to develop something that they cannot get in the supermarket, and would at the very least have to pay a lot of money mail ordering seed tubers for unusual varieties. I have fifty row feet of a red skinned dark yellow fleshed variety growing that I developed from TPS two seasons ago. I cannot buy seed potatoes to substitute, AFAIK.


I do not understand why you are so hooked on bashing TPS potato growers and not tomato growers. Most of this forum site is devoted to talk about growing tomato varieties that you feel are crap -- home developed heirlooms that by your criteria of production are not as good as modern commecial hybrids.
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Old May 20, 2013   #59
raindrops27
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@hdrider
I appreciate your comments. I do have some experience growing sweet peppers too. So for peppers try morning sun exposure and afternoon shade not full sun ~8hrs of direct sun seem enough in my MA garden. Of course I did a well documented experiment too. Try and see if you get better results. I've tried that 3 years in a row and the yield and health of the plants seem to agree with it.

Wendy thanks for the answer to my pm, you have not only been overly gracious, but a wealth of information for me, thank you! I did hill the plants per your advice..

Now, for sweet peppers, I had great lush green peppers from seeds growing for 2 full months inside under lights they were all crowded in one pot, after hardening.. I separated the root bound plants to transfer into the garden. Well, they have turned a pale yellow and are sulking.. I am thinking I may have tugged to hard on the roots. I don't know. It could just be the cool weather at night. I am clueless. Any tips, or info.. I am thinking of just going to buy more from the box store. If I see no improvements in the next week.
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Old May 20, 2013   #60
wmontanez
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Melissa, is my pleasure.

Peppers cannot take temperatures below 50F. I don't baby my plants so I do treat them roughly at planting time too....so I don't think to loose some roots is the problem with yours....I do however plant them in the last week of May to avoid the cold spells etc. This year is being colder in MA so I might wait until June 1st. If you can put a cover during night they might recover since it only dipped here in the 40's.
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