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Old March 9, 2012   #1
Farmette
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Default Does 13...13...13 conflict with mycos

I've been reading about the importance of micronutrients in another thread. I already add mycorrhizae to my tomatoes in ground and container grown. I remember reading here that one should not use a fertilizer with a (was it phosphate or potassium) level higher than 4 for the mycos to be effective. So, since I am already adding mycos, should I not use the miconutrient mix described in a thread on container gardening?
Also, is adding that 13...13...13 fertilizer mix considered to supportive of organic gardening methods or not? I do not want to ruin my soil. As you can see, I need to learn alot about soilbuilding.
Thanks for any help!
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Old March 9, 2012   #2
feldon30
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What's the name of this fertilizer product?

I don't know of an organic fertilizer that's 13-13-13 but I don't know every organic fertilizer out there.
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Old March 9, 2012   #3
Farmette
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Here is the thread and it is a loooonnnng one:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=18309
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Old March 9, 2012   #4
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farmette,

I have read labels on various myco based products, and they warn that the "P" component must be lower than 5, or it can kill the effectiveness of the critters in the myco.

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Old March 9, 2012   #5
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I skimmed through the thread and Carolyn said:

Quote:
I use the micro-nutrients sold at http://www.foodforeveryone.org
The fertilizer mixture contains 20 pounds of 13-13-13, 3 pounds of epsom salt, and 8 oz of the micro nutrients.
I went there and they just have the micronutrients:
http://www.growfood.com/shop/natural...al-fertilizers

So I'm not sure the source of the 13-13-13.
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Old March 9, 2012   #6
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My understanding was that the 13-13-13 was one component of the mix, the micros from a source linked to in that specific thread were a separate component added to the 13-13-13 fertilizer which was not organic. I imagine you could use the same micros suggested but mixed with an organic fertilizer more compatible with the mycos you intend to use.

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Old March 9, 2012   #7
Farmette
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I've never seen 13-13-13 either. Looks like if I want the mycos to work, I will need to use one with a lower P component.
Thanks for all your help!
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Old March 9, 2012   #8
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No, my fertilizer is not organic. Organic is so hard to get beautiful plants like the pictures I posted. I use commercial.
Mittleider Magic Micro-Nutrients 8 oz
20 pounds 13-13-13
3 pounds Epsom Salt
Mix.


From Carolyn's post.
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Old March 9, 2012   #9
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The 13-13-13 is probably something like osmocoate.
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Old March 10, 2012   #10
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One of the things Myco's do is make the P (phosphorus) available to the plant that would otherwise not be available. There is no need for high phosphorus ferts when using Mycorrhiza and yes it can inhibit the symbiotic relationship formed between the roots and the aggregate (Rhizophere) by the Mycorrhiza. Ami
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Old March 10, 2012   #11
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Thank you all for the input...I guess I'll stick with what I've got.
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Old March 10, 2012   #12
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The question is how much 13-13-13 per plant. Raising the phosphorus
above about 50 ppm in the soil inhibits mycorrhizae, until it disappears
completely at around 100ppm.

I do not know how you find what the P ppm in the soil will be after adding
a particular amount of 13-13-13 without a lab handy to test. (I have seen
this formula with 13-8-13 recommended for the N-P-K part, too.)

Older style agriculture from decades ago ignored mycorrhizae and most
soil organisms. "Organic" was not an issue, etc. If they had soil disease,
they would blast it with methyl bromide (kill every organism in it) and
then supply enough N-P-K to grow plants in pure sand (just add water).
13-13-13 seems more like a fertilizer from that era than something that
is going to fit well with organic gardening and mycorrhizae.
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Old March 10, 2012   #13
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I'm not sure I really follow the "rules" of fertilizing. Instead of re-applying fertilizer every week or couple of weeks at the recommended dosage, I add up the dosage for 12 weeks, and then scatter that much in the approximately 1 cubic foot where the plant will be. This is on the basis that over 12 weeks of growth, the plant will "find" fertilizer as it needs it.
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Old March 10, 2012   #14
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Ami - have you read anything that applies this concept to organic P? Generally, organic P becomes available very, very slowly. I can't imagine a situation where it would interfere with the Mycos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amideutch View Post
One of the things Myco's do is make the P (phosphorus) available to the plant that would otherwise not be available. There is no need for high phosphorus ferts when using Mycorrhiza and yes it can inhibit the symbiotic relationship formed between the roots and the aggregate (Rhizophere) by the Mycorrhiza. Ami
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Old March 10, 2012   #15
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[QUOTEAmi - have you read anything that applies this concept to organic P? Generally, organic P becomes available very, very slowly. I can't imagine a situation where it would interfere with the Mycos.][/QUOTE]

Organic P Should not be a problem as long as you know whats in the growing medium to begin with. The optimum tomato fert ratio's of NPK is 2-1-3. So I don't know why anybody would use lets say a 20-20-20 anyway. As I said before any Phosphorus in the soil whether it be locked up or not the myco's will make it available to the plant so adding a high "P" fert just does not make since whether it be organic or inorganic.

Here are the NPK ppm formulations for a 3 stage hydroponic nutrient solution formulation targeted for tomatoes at different growth phases of the plant.

Stage 1 (Seedlings from first true leaf Stage till 14"-16" tall)
N=100ppm
P= 40ppm
K= 200ppm

Stage 2 (14"-16" tall till fist cluster fruit set)
N= 130ppm
P= 55ppm
K= 300ppm

Stage 3 (After first fruit set till maturity)
N= 180ppm
P= 65ppm
K= 400ppm

GH's Floramato fertilizer with a NPK of 10-6-18 is a good example of the 2-1-3 ratio which can also be seen in the above formulations. Ami

P.S. I have most of Jacob Mittleiders Books and his fertilizer formulations were based on inorganic ferts. And his grow box custom made soil (Aggregate)
consisted of a combination of Blowsand+peat, sawdust or perlite.
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Last edited by amideutch; March 10, 2012 at 02:35 PM.
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