Big Rainbow, Striped German, Flame, Pineapple, Virginia Sweets

[OneoftheEarls]

In the book "Vertical Gardening" by Derek Fell, on page 180, he claims that Big Rainbow is aka Striped German, Flame, Pineapple and Virginia Sweets.

SSE lists them as different.

How do you all feel about this statement?

I do not believe they are identical, but they do have similarities.

Earl

[lurley]

I've been wondering that myself. Have grown hillbilly and pineapple and this year am growing flame, virginia sweets, big rainbow, hawaiian pineapple along with them just to see if there is any difference.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by OneoftheEarls

In the book "Vertical Gardening" by Derek Fell, on page 180, he claims that Big Rainbow is aka Striped German, Flame, Pineapple and Virginia Sweets.

SSE lists them as different.

How do you all feel about this statement?

I do not believe they are identical, but they do have similarities.

Earl

All one has to do is to look at the histories behind them to know they aren't the same.

There are probably close to 200 red/gold bicolors listed in the SSE YEarbooks but again, just knowing when and where from and by whom a variety was introduced can ID them, certainly not by appearance since so many look alike.

I should say something about Flame, though.

There's Jaune Flammee which is not a bicolor but when I sent it to Linda at TGS I forgot to put the Jaune in front so she listed it as Flammee initially, I think, and then akaed it as it should be when she had room to do it.

But when it comes to Flame, that's a totally different story.

When the Olympics were held in LA Renee Sheperd introduced a gold/red bicolor which she called Olympic Flame. It was a selection made by Patty B at Seeds by Design from a common existing gold/red bicolor so Renee could rename it that.

The Olympic Comm said she couldn't use that name so she changed it to Old Flame and that morphed into just Flame. So the same variety exists under three different names.

When I first saw Hillbilly ( Flame) that made no sense to me and still doesn't and I have no idea who first did that and it shouldn't be perpetuated b'c Hillbilly is NOT the same as Flame.

Got it?

[OneoftheEarls]

Yes, Carolyn, I have seen your explanation about Flame but never a claim that Virginia Sweets is Big Rainbow and/or Striped German...etc.

He is aware of SSE as he discusses it in his book.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by OneoftheEarls

Yes, Carolyn, I have seen your explanation about Flame but never a claim that Virginia Sweets is Big Rainbow and/or Striped German...etc.

He is aware of SSE as he discusses it in his book.

Earl, aside from Flame, as I said above one can distinguish Big Rainbow and Striped German and Virginia Sweets according to when they were first listed in the SSE YEarbook and by whom and when.

He may be aware of SSE but is he an SSE member so he can view the YEarbooks online and get the backgrounds ASAP or has his own copies of the Yearbooks? I know he's not a listed member but could be an unlisted one but if that were true he'd still have access to the information about varieties.

I would assume, but don't know b/c I didn't check, that Tania has such information at her website.

No one can ID a variety without that information since so many of the gold/red bicolors look the same at maturity. The only one I know that is a bit different is Mary Reynolds since the seconday exterior color goes all the way to the top and when full ripe the fruits look almost red. And of course there's a few PL bicolors thrown in as well.

Other than the kind of background info that's needed, that I mentioned above to distinguish one variety from another, the only other way is with DNA sequencing and I don't see that happening anytime in the future.

Of the ones you mention above the only ones I remember without checking are Big Rainbow which was introduced many years ago by Dorothy Beisweger of MN and she was the source of my initial seeds and so noted in my book. I also had to do some background checks on Hillbilly. b'c I was wrongly credited with the PL version of it in the SSE public catalog a few years back and gave SSE the name of the correct person on that one.

As I recall, and just checked, Virginia Sweets was first offered by SSE itself in the 2000 Yearbook and has an accession number, so that one was sent directly to SSE and not first listed by an SSE member as does happen from time to time in which case there's usually no background information. I could dig out my 2000 Yearbook and see who donated it if SSE noted that but that wouldn't help. It was Neil L who first got it from SSE directly from that SSE 2000 liting and brought it forward and listed it in the YEarbook.

Neil has a special interest in gold/red bicolors and I remember one time going thru all my old seeds to find the variety Indian Reservation for him b/c he just had to have it.

Yes, I know who Derek Fell is, as a garden writer from PA who is usually published by Rodale Press.

Edited to add as I prepare to go back to bed, if he knew what the variety Flame really was he wouldn't be equating it with the others, so I doubt that he did much background checking before making the claims that he has and knowing Rodale Press as I do I doubt that anyone editing that book would be doing much fact checking.

[nctomatoman]

I would suspect that if we did the requisite DNA testing, many of the red/yellow bicolors are very, very, very similar, if not nearly identical.....I've grown loads of them. A few that stood out as being distinct are Marizol Gold (foliage is distinctly darker bluish green than many of the others), Mary Robinson's bicolor (young seedlings are just pathetic looking before they gain strength and get going), Selwin Yellow (regular leaf foliage is distinctly larger and rather unusual looking). I could see little to no difference between Georgia Streak, Indian Reservation, Ruby Gold, Pineapple, Regina's Yellow, Hillbilly, Mortage Lifter Pesta Strain, Armenian, and Yellow Brimmer. Not to say that there may have been some minor distinctions, but not enough to tell....for sure, the fruit were similarly sized and similarly very mild (tending to if not flavorless, not my type of flavor).

[fortyonenorth]

Derek Fell is an ornamental guy for the most part. I suspect that for a large majority of the gardening public these varieties are close enough to be considered the "same." But, as the saying goes, "close" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by fortyonenorth

Derek Fell is an ornamental guy for the most part. I suspect that for a large majority of the gardening public these varieties are close enough to be considered the "same." But, as the saying goes, "close" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Which is why I made the comment to Earl about Fell in my above post.

Craig, no doubt DNA sequencing would show a large degree concordance between varieties but I'm sure also some differences. And you've pointed out the same ones I would have in terms of some differences.

Some are family heirlooms and came from spcific places and it's hard for me to assume that Dorothy Beiswinger's Big Rainbow might be the same as perhaps Burracker's Favorite, to give one example. And then there are those that arose by cross pollination and are more recent such as your two Luckies as well as the Pesta one.

BTW, it's Selwyn Yellow, not Selwin, I just couldn't help myself.

[Ken4230]

Originally Posted by fortyonenorth

Derek Fell is an ornamental guy for the most part. I suspect that for a large majority of the gardening public these varieties are close enough to be considered the "same." But, as the saying goes, "close" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

fortyone, you left out the two best "close" ones: washers and slow dancing.

[travis]

Are you all talking about "that old yellow German tomato that grandpa grew from seeds he got from that there one-eyed fellow up in Copperhead Holler?"