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Old March 10, 2010   #1
carolyn137
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Default Champagne Cherry

Some of you have grown this cherry and like it very much. I got more interested when last summer Adam Gleckler said he couldn't tell the difference between the two varieties CC and Coyote, both of which had been sent to him from folks who participated in my call for varieties to help him get going with his tomato section. So I tried to track down the origin and background and came up short with some saying it originated in Europe, but not documented proof and most having no idea where it came from.

I admit I had problems with thinking that the French would have named a variety Champagne Cherry, just not quite the French way of doing things.

This AM at another message site someone was also looking for background info on CC so I went to Ventmarin again, where is was described as a "cerise" type and there was a picture, I looked at Terra Edibles, where it's sold and there's a picture, I looked again at Tania's site where there's a picture but she has no background info either and I looked at the picture of Coyote at Gleckler's.

I could not distinguish the pictures of CC from Coyote. But what about taste? Maria ( BLue Ribbon Seeds) was one who told me that she had grown both and they tasted differently. Maria, I don't know if you grew both in the same year or not, and I don't know if others have done that same comparison in the same season.

I know lots of folks like the taste of Coyote, some don't, and I know CC has been grown less often than Coyote and I know from feedback that most like the taste of CC but haven't compared it to Coyote.

Again. I honestly could not tell the difference between the pictures of Coyote and Champagne Cherry.

But then in yet another Google Search I came up with the following link:

http://www.sunsetproduce.com/product/tomatoes/champagne

I linked to the page where CC is featured but if you move around you'll see that they're an international marketing firm and they sell some TM ( trade marked) varieties such as Campari, Kumato and others.

They refer to CC as a "cocktail cherry" and it too is trademarked.

Since it's known that some of the large international marketing firms, and Sunset is one of them, have been known to change the names of some tomato varieties for marketing purposes, it makes perfect sense to me that Champagne Cherry IS Coyote renamed. If one were to contact Sunset I rather think that if they did so, they perhaps wouldn't say so, but to trademark a variety indicates a proprietary claim.

And if they do market internationally it also makes sense that CC would turn up in Europe as well.

So this is my current hypothesis on the origin of Champagne Cherry based on all I've said above.

Craig LeHoullier was the one who got the seeds for Coyote from Dominga ( Maye) Clemente and the seeds were from Vera Cruz, Mexico and Craig first listed it in the SSE Yearbook in 1992.

If anyone else here has additional information or comments, please do post.
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Old March 10, 2010   #2
Tania
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Carolyn,

I am a bit confused (...although my brain is still not fully operational after the flu I've been fighting in the last week...) - The Sunset firm features 'Champagne' as a red cherry tomato, and not white/yellow as Champagne Cherry is described by other growers. (?)

Unless both Coyote and Champagne Cherry are grown side by side and compared based on leaf, growth habit, DTM, etc, we should not be making any conclusions wrt renaming, me think...

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Old March 10, 2010   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tania View Post
Carolyn,

I am a bit confused (...although my brain is still not fully operational after the flu I've been fighting in the last week...) - The Sunset firm features 'Champagne' as a red cherry tomato, and not white/yellow as Champagne Cherry is described by other growers. (?)

Unless both Coyote and Champagne Cherry are grown side by side and compared based on leaf, growth habit, DTM, etc, we should not be making any conclusions wrt renaming, me think...

Tania
Tania, It does look as though it might be confusing, but right away I realized that those weren't actual photos, the colors are off. And then if you go right on that page with CC on it, you'll see a list of the varieties they offer, and if you go down thru them and click, when you get to the Gourmet Medley one you'll see one cherry that stands out and it's yellow, and no others on their list are yellow. Actually the only one they say in writing is red is the beefsteak one.

Maria ( BLue Ribbon) has grown both CC and Coyote side by side and what she said is that they tasted slightly differently to her. Adam also grew both side by side last summer and he could tell no difference between them regarding any tomato trait, as well as taste.

I'm putting this out there as a stong possibility b'c no one, to date, has offered any clear documantation of history for this variety, and it only appeared a couple of years ago and while I think Terry might have obtained it in France, and Ventmarin also lists it, it makes sense if Sunset was also distributing them in Europe.

Something to think about.
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Old March 10, 2010   #4
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Me, too, I'm always interested in the history of "my" tomatoes and Carolyn, you made me very curious about both varieties. I had Champagne Cherry last year (seeds from Terry) and liked it very much because of its sweet taste. I would describe the color as light yellow, not yellow as for example Golden Queen.

For this season I had planned to grow Coyote, but after your posting, Carolyn, I shall grow both varieties for a comparison. clara
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Old March 10, 2010   #5
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I happen to have Champagne Cherry and Coyote growing side by side in their little plastic cups right now. I got both from blueribbon tomatoes. They look alike, but they are babies right now. Yes, I know I am late for my zone, but I recklessly break gardening rules all the time.
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Old March 10, 2010   #6
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I was also confused by the Sunset page that shows "Champagne" as a red cherry. When I was offered Champagne, I thought I remembered it as being yellow. The page does make it seem that the pic is of what they are calling Champagne cherry.

But my guess is that they just happened to name it the same as an already existing named variety without knowing about the pale yellow variety. Just trying to create a brand.

I happened to go thru their site looking at what they were listing. The fact it Hubby found some very nice Sunset brand yellow "on the vine" cluster tomatoes at a local store about a month ago. I don't know what variety they may be as they weren't quite like any other variety i've grown so far. So we saved seeds.

BTW, I do have Coyote to grow this year, but I never did get the Champagne as the person that offered it then couldn't find their seeds. If anyone has some seeds I'll trade for whatever, so I can compare them.

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Old March 11, 2010   #7
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Some pics here:

Champagne

I growth Champagne last year, very sweet and proloific. Looks like Matt's wild cherry in white/cream tomato.

I never growth Coyote..
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Old March 11, 2010   #8
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Default champagne/coyote

The pic of champagne looks remarkably like coyote to me. I will compare when mine ripen completely and comment then.
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Old March 11, 2010   #9
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That's exactly what my Champagne Cherries were looking! I love that wonderful arrangement! clara
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Old March 11, 2010   #10
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As Carolyn said above I did grow both varieties last year and I could not tell the difference between the two. This is why I did not list the CC, but I have about 3/4 a pound of seed and plenty of Coyote so is anyone wants to grow the both of them side by side PM me and I will send You seeds of both. They both were huge plants for me and the foilage was much like our Yellow Cherry on the both of them. The fruit was almost white at the top and a dirty yellow at the bottom on both varieties and I could not tell a differance in taste
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Old March 11, 2010   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmall View Post
As Carolyn said above I did grow both varieties last year and I could not tell the difference between the two. This is why I did not list the CC, but I have about 3/4 a pound of seed and plenty of Coyote so is anyone wants to grow the both of them side by side PM me and I will send You seeds of both. They both were huge plants for me and the foilage was much like our Yellow Cherry on the both of them. The fruit was almost white at the top and a dirty yellow at the bottom on both varieties and I could not tell a differance in taste
What a generous offer Adam. and it's an important one b'c if some take you up on your offer their seed source will be the same.

I just checked who sent you those two varieties and it was Craig who sent Coyote and he's the one who introduced it and it was Terry who sent you the CC. She said she had two sources, one in France and Solana seeds in Canada and I don't know which one she sent b/c it could be important, see below.

I was just posting a response to Maria (Blue Ribbon Maria) elsewhere who says the two are different, but I don't know her source of Coyote, nor do I know which source Terry used when she sent her the CC seeds.
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Old March 12, 2010   #12
farmall
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I have five or so already willing to grow them both out already so how ever many people are willing to test Coyote and CC. The best way to do this is to grow them right next to each other. Then post in this thread what you come up with. I will also grow the both of them side by side.
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Old March 13, 2010   #13
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Actually, Maria at Blue Ribbon Tomatoes said that they tasted the same: "As for general size and taste, I don't think you could tell them apart blindfolded." She noted that CC had a translucent skin and Coyote had a solid yellow skin, she also noted that the leaves were different Coyote's being more rounded and oak leaf-like. I think it's a good idea for many people to grow them out side by side and then compare their findings before any difinitive conclusions are drawn. I emailed Sunset Produce and asked them to confirm the color of the Champagne. I suspect I won't hear back from them until Monday. I figured it couldn't hurt to contact them directly to clear up that part of the mystery.
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Old March 13, 2010   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lj in ny View Post
Actually, Maria at Blue Ribbon Tomatoes said that they tasted the same: "As for general size and taste, I don't think you could tell them apart blindfolded." She noted that CC had a translucent skin and Coyote had a solid yellow skin, she also noted that the leaves were different Coyote's being more rounded and oak leaf-like. I think it's a good idea for many people to grow them out side by side and then compare their findings before any difinitive conclusions are drawn. I emailed Sunset Produce and asked them to confirm the color of the Champagne. I suspect I won't hear back from them until Monday. I figured it couldn't hurt to contact them directly to clear up that part of the mystery.
Maria and I are posting at another site and I pointed out to her that Terry had two sources for CC, one in France and one from Terra Edibles, and Maria didn't know that and doesn't know which one Terry sent her and nor does Adam know which one Terry sent to him, and that's why Maria has moved back a bit on what she had written. I doubt if Terry can remember which she might have sent to either Maria or Adam, and the source for Terra Edibles isn't known either.

The best way of comparing the two is to use seeds for both from the same source, as you also said, and that's why I'm glad that Adam is facilitating that by offering seeds for both and then both can be grown out in the same season and direct comparisons made, which eliminates many variables.

So, you e-mailed to ask Sunset to ask about color. Did you also ask them the origin of the variety? And I'm glad you did ask about color or the REAL fruits b'c all the representations at the Sunset site were not from actual tomatoes, but the one picture of the possible CC in the mixed gourmet picture was a darker yellow than one might suspect based on the photography color matching elsewhere at the site.

Sunset lists their varieties and the Champagne Cherry that we know is ivory to yellow in color as others who have grown it have said, separate from any pictures, so let's see what they say about color and origin.

You know, it could also be Mirabelle Blanche that could have been renamed b'c it's perhaps easier to play off the Champagne moniker with a known French variety.


In a psot to Maria elsewhere I also gave her links to the pictures of CC at Terra Edibles as well as Ventmarin in France and some other links as well. There are many pictures at several sites of Coyote.
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Old March 15, 2010   #15
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I received a response from Nancy at Sunset Produce in Canada- their Champagne cherry is RED and she said that their Gourmet Medly is a mix of grape and cherry tomatoes that changes throughout the season depending on availabilty. So what they are offering isn't the same as the Champagne Cherry we've been discussing. So the beat goes on...
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