anna russian cherry cross???

[rxkeith]

one of my surprises this year is an anna russian that is producing small trusses of an elongated red cherry tomato with a very slight point on the end. the seeds were my saved seeds from several years ago.
i remember reading somewhere here that the cherry gene is dominant. is that correct?
if so, then i can expect my f2 plants to be all cherries. i am wondering how much variability i may see when selecting for best flavor, growth, etc. assuming, both parents were open pollenated. will i have a stable variety sooner, because its a cherry tomato?
the flavor of the tomato is worth investigating further.



keith

[maf]

Most of the F2's wil be between cherry and slightly larger size but a few will be larger still. You would need to grow many many plants to have a good chance of something the same size as Anna Russian but the possibility is there. There are several genes for larger size and most are recessive so it is a numbers game to find the bigger fruited F2's.

This blog post from Frogsleap is about crosses between cherry and beefsteak but same principles apply and contains much relevant information: http://frogsleapfarm.blogspot.com/20...beefsteak.html

And no, it will not be stable sooner because it is a cherry.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by rxkeith

one of my surprises this year is an anna russian that is producing small trusses of an elongated red cherry tomato with a very slight point on the end. the seeds were my saved seeds from several years ago.
i remember reading somewhere here that the cherry gene is dominant. is that correct?
if so, then i can expect my f2 plants to be all cherries. i am wondering how much variability i may see when selecting for best flavor, growth, etc. assuming, both parents were open pollenated. will i have a stable variety sooner, because its a cherry tomato?
the flavor of the tomato is worth investigating further.



keith

Keith, I know Anna Russian very well and if you got cherry sized fruits from it and only on ONE truss then I'd ASAP think of a somatic mutation.

But if all the trusses are giving you elongated apparently cherry sized fruits with a nipple, then I'd suggest maybe the result of cross pollination.

And you do mention two parents, so are you also thinking the result of cross pollination?

How many plants of Anna Russian did you have out and did this happen with just one plant or all of them? Just trying toelimste thepossibility of a stray seed in with your saved F2 seeds of Anna Russian, but only you would know if that's a possibility from other varieties you were growing originally.

Carolyn, who isn't sure if she's being helpful or not, but hopes it's the former and not the latter in this sentence.

[rxkeith]

i had two anna russians in the garden. the other plant hasn't done a darn thing. both plants had the thin leaf foliage.

all the trusses are producing cherry sized fruit.

this year is the only plant i have had produce cherry sized fruit. not all plants have made it to the garden over the years, so there could have been others. stray seed is always possible, but i am pretty careful during the seed saving process.

the only elongated cherry i have grown in the past is juliet, a hybrid that i would not have saved seeds for. i haven't grown that one in awhile. i have also grown pink plum, and gails sweet plum. all the other cherry tomatoes i have grown have been round and red or chocolate except for medovaya kaplya.
the fruit just looks like its own unique self. i am thinking cross pollination.
the tomato doesn't have a nipple on the end. it just comes to a point.



keith

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by rxkeith

i had two anna russians in the garden. the other plant hasn't done a darn thing. both plants had the thin leaf foliage.

all the trusses are producing cherry sized fruit.

this year is the only plant i have had produce cherry sized fruit. not all plants have made it to the garden over the years, so there could have been others. stray seed is always possible, but i am pretty careful during the seed saving process.

the only elongated cherry i have grown in the past is juliet, a hybrid that i would not have saved seeds for. i haven't grown that one in awhile. i have also grown pink plum, and gails sweet plum. all the other cherry tomatoes i have grown have been round and red or chocolate except for medovaya kaplya.
the fruit just looks like its own unique self. i am thinking cross pollination.
the tomato doesn't have a nipple on the end. it just comes to a point.



keith

OK, since all trusses are producing the cherries, then not a somatic mutation with the one plant that produced for you this year.

So it looks to me that the last time you grew Anna Russian that cross pollination occurred. You saved seeds of Anna Russian that Fall and that's the seeds you used to grow those two plants.

Of the other cherries you mention several of them are candidates , or perps, if you will, that did the deed.

So we agree it's cross pollination and now the question is did you like those new small ones enough and saved enough F2 seed from them to get into a multi year project to make selections from F2 growouts, etc.

Your choice on that but having done that myself you need lots of space and time to do that/

Maf, I know that you addressed some of the answers I just gave, but perhaps I did it in a slightly different way. In no way was I trying to say you were off base b'c you know far more tomato genetics than I do. I can hobble along with the basics and my own experiences in dehybridizing accidental crosses with OP's and a couple of F1 known hybrids, but when it gets deep, I'm out.

Carolyn

[travis]

If you wish to select for a cherry size tomato in the long term, saving seeds from the F2 and F3 plants that give fruit with only two seed cells (locules) will be your best bet.

[bower]

Keith, if you're aiming for a cherry or small fruit, IMO a half dozen F2 plants is enough for you to find out what the segregation pattern will be like for taste traits, and then decide how many you would need to grow to find the combination of size, shape and taste that you wanted.

If the unknown cherry parent has a good combination of taste traits with AR, you should only get about one reject out of half dozen (1/4), then you'll know it's worth pursuing to get the size/shape etc. and best taste. At least, this is how I look at the investment of space and resources - half dozen is not so many that you'll be disgusted if the cross is no good. If most are good, then you'll know it's worth growing more F2's to get the shape/size/taste combo if you didn't get it the first time.

This opinion, based on my limited experience, stands to be corrected by someone more experienced. IME, for a cherry cross that was decent - 3/4 nice quality fruit in F2 - I found the same approximate ratio for good taste in the F3 as well, ie it followed a dominant pattern more or less, although I know there are many components of taste, under separate genetic control, the pattern I observed would tend to indicate a core group of those positive taste traits following a dominant pattern.

If a dominant pattern is assumed, that means in F4 or a later generation, you need to grow at least 24 plants, I think, to make certain the dominant traits are stable.

On the other hand, it's likely that some unique components of taste are indeed recessive, which is why many more plants are grown in F2/F3 to find fruit with a truly exceptional taste.