Hybrid-Heirlooms

[WVTomatoMan]

Originally Posted by TomatoDon

...Until someone can actually explain to me in clear, simple English what an heirloom is.....how it's different from, or related to, an OP or hybrid....

Sometimes people try to make things more complicated than they are. OP (open pollinated) varieties come back true to type when grown from saved seed, hybrids don't. All heirlooms are OP. Heirlooms are old cultivars. Hybrids are created by crossing two OP varieties. That's it. It's really that easy.

Hope this clears things up for ya.


Randy

[TomatoDon]

Now that the water is sufficiently muddy again........

As always....the hybrid, OP, heirloom debate starts no where and ends no where.

[drew51]

Originally Posted by TomatoDon

Now that the water is sufficiently muddy again........

As always....the hybrid, OP, heirloom debate starts no where and ends no where.

Haa! Hey i get it now, I really appreciate the posts guys thanks very much!!!!
It is confusing but certainly explainable. I understand now.
I will be growing 11 OP's next season most are heirlooms but not all. And 2 hybrids too! I can't wait!!!

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by WVTomatoMan

Sometimes people try to make things more complicated than they are. OP (open pollinated) varieties come back true to type when grown from saved seed, hybrids don't. All heirlooms are OP. Heirlooms are old cultivars. Hybrids are created by crossing two OP varieties. That's it. It's really that easy . . .

I wonder if that should be 'OP varieties come back true to type when grown from saved seed that has been produced by bagged or otherwise protected blossoms'.

[WVTomatoMan]

Originally Posted by TomatoDon

Now that the water is sufficiently muddy again........

No, the water has not been made muddy. The water has been made perfectly clear in plain simple English which is what you asked for. There is nothing in my definition that is objectionable or contradictory to any other definitions. What I've done is eliminate the ambiguity and confusion. For instance some definitions say that heirlooms must be 50 years old, or heirlooms must have been created before 1940, etc. Using the word old covers all of that and makes it simple and easy to understand.

What is it about my definition that is muddy or unclear?


Randy

[WVTomatoMan]

Originally Posted by drew51

Haa! Hey i get it now, I really appreciate the posts guys thanks very much!!!!
It is confusing but certainly explainable. I understand now.
I will be growing 11 OP's next season most are heirlooms but not all. And 2 hybrids too! I can't wait!!!

That's great Drew. Glad to be of help.

Randy

[WVTomatoMan]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

I wonder if that should be 'OP varieties come back true to type when grown from saved seed that has been produced by bagged or otherwise protected blossoms'.

Yes, that is true, but it also assumed. Generally when I'm talking to people I say OP varieties come back true to type when grown from saved seed assuming no foreign pollen has been introduced. But, in this case I wanted to make it as short and simple as possible.

Randy

[Redbaron]

From a marketing point of view, I found the simplest thing to say is "heirloom and artisan". Most customers are happy with that alone. If any do ask, I simply say a newer variety bred for flavor instead of shipping qualities found in the grocery stores. A "future" heirloom if people develop a fondness for it and it lasts the test of time.

No customer has ever had any problems with that explanation.

If they ask about hybrids, (I do grow a couple) I say yes, but same thing again, only if it was bred for flavor.

[Doug9345]

I like the artisan title. People are familiar with it in breads and other products

[TomatoDon]

WV Tomatoman....are you through proving how right you are and how wrong I am, or do you have the need to continue, and also need some more time and space to do that?

I believe you take yourself too seriously at times. Don't throw a tantrum, it's only a chat forum, not a competition.

[Sun City Linda]

Oh dear, does someone need a hug

[carolyn137]

When I've had a "vigorous" discussion with someone, rather than prolong it I just say something like..... let's agree to disagree and then just stop the debate/discussion/ argument on my part.

It works.

Carolyn

[TomatoDon]

"As always....the hybrid, OP, heirloom debate starts no where and ends no where." I already said I agree to disagree. I assume the preceding two comments were directed to someone else.

[drew51]

Originally Posted by TomatoDon

"As always....the hybrid, OP, heirloom debate starts no where and ends no where." I already said I agree to disagree. I assume the preceding two comments were directed to someone else.

Well I'll agree to disagree, as it seems rather clear as to what is what.
The only definition that seems unclear is heirloom, but that's not a big deal. I don't care about that. It's kinda like defining at what age you get the senoir citizen discount. Date when created is good enough for one to decide themselves. One reason i don't care about what is called heirloom as the information tells you next to nothing anyway. Age may be important if you're buying a used car, but a tomato variety? No not really. We are not creating new genes here, the basic buliding blocks of all tomatoes are the same age.
If one definition is accepted the end result is the same, it tells me nothing important.
So who cares if the definition is blurry?
As far as OP and hybrid, well we could not have picked worse names. Better names would have created less confusion, but it's too late for that now.

[TomatoDon]

I poke a little fun at it from time to time when it comes up because it rarely accomplishes anything. I pay zero attention to OP, Heirloom, Hybrid, etc. when selecting varieties to plant. Mine is based on what works well in my area. Good production, taste, etc. as I've already mentioned. I can't imagine anyone passing on a good tasting variety just to have an OP or Hybrid or anything else. I plant all kinds, yes including OP, but I never pay one iota of attention to any of the plant classifications.

Heaven help us when "Brandywine" is mentioned. Then we go into endless circles of which ones are true, which are not, what is a pink, what is a red, where did the seed come from, can it be verified, someone mis-labeled an accidental cross, the true strain of so-and-so really should be called this or that, and ad nauseum. And a lot of that is important to the breeders and seed savers and people who take the breeding and strains and technical end of all this very seriously. I just happen to not be one of those people. Most of this doesn't matter to me any more than which one was REALLY best in a single season.....Babe Ruth, Roger Maris, or Mark McGuire.

These OP, Heirloom, Hybrid discussions usually cause more heat than light. So far they've never solved anything collectively. Mostly just preaching to the choir.