Troubles and Tribulations

gflynn · June 3, 2009

This year I got a bunch of Horse Manure and dumped into the garden and I even added a new garden that is laced with the stuff. After planting I found that the new growth began to curl. This disturbing news caused me to unearth the plants, wash off the roots and replant them in pots temporarily.

So far they have not recovered and I have removed a portion of soil from the top of the beds and replanted other plants. The sad thing is that some of these plants were not replaceable so I may be sporting the same old variaties I had last year for lack of the new stuff.

If any of them recover I will find a spot for them but this will at least delay my season.

On the bright side next year, the soil will be great :-)

The MD extension service and folks on Tomatoville think its ammonia that with disapate in a few weeks so I should be ok long term. Also, I shouldn't be having deer problems since I have everything well protected this year!

We shall see!

Zana · June 3, 2009

Sorry to hear of your problem with the manure being "too ripe" and losing so many of your plants. Hopefully they'll recover in the pots.

aninocentangel · June 4, 2009

Maybe if you water it extra heavy extra often it will help dissipate the ammonia faster?
Sorry your plants didn't handle the poo well.

gflynn · June 4, 2009

Thanks for the support Zana. Hope and change is what I need :-)

Angel, We are expecting lots of rain so I won't need to do a thing if that will help!

rxkeith · June 4, 2009

this is interesting.

i just planted some of my plants yesterday. i got a pickup load of horse manure from a neighbor. i put a shovel or so in the hole, and mixed it up, before planting. then i put a ring of manure around each plant for mulch, and slow feed. my plants weren't in the best of shape to begin with due to a few things, and i have back ups for most of them. i will keep an eye on them.

keith

Zana · June 4, 2009

You may want to try watering with a solution of 1 part vinegar to 3-5 parts vinegar....not straight on the plant. Vinegar acting as a neutralising agent.

I found the following when I googled "neutralising raw horse manure" on the www.tenthousandpercent.com website :

Understanding the Role of Manure

Manure can be a helpful and inexpensive addition to your compost batch. It’s important to understand the nature and role of manure before deploying it, however, to avoid potential serious problems.

-Manure is animal waste. As noted above, only cow (not steer or commercial) and horse manure are acceptable among mammal wastes. Chicken and other bird manure is also good for composting. Cow manure has properties as an antifungal compost additive and a unique complement of nutrients, and is therefore widely sought.
-Rule #1 : Never apply raw manure directly to your soil. This is a grave error made by many, from commercial farms to home gardeners. Direct application of raw manure to soil has the following negative effects :
-Raw manure contains numerous pathogens that will be passed on to your crop – potentially a deadly situation in the case of vegetables like leafy greens that grow low to the earth. One has only to recall the recent salmonella outbreaks to understand the gravity of this problem.
-Raw manure contains weed seeds that you likely do not want to introduce into your growing environment.
-Raw manure contains high concentrations of nitrogen that can cause ‘nitrogen burn,’ wherein the plant uptakes a harmful amount of the element and suffers what is in effect chemical burn, and ‘junkie plant syndrome,’ wherein a plant will get ‘high’ after the first application of raw manure, growing rapidly, and then ‘crash,’ wearing out and withering rapidly before producing a substantial harvest. Both of these effects substantially reduce your yield and biologically damage your plants.

Cecilia_MD7a · June 4, 2009

Sorry for your setback, Greg - you have my sympathies. I hope all this rain does the trick. I assume that fresh manure is a "green" in compost parlance, correct? Maybe you could mix in some "brown" (mulched leaves?) to the garden if the rain doesn't take care of the problem.

Your problem makes tomato trials and tribulations sound trivial (nice alliteration, hun?). I checked the map I made of my garden and realized that the plant I believed to be "Greater Baltimore" has potato leaves instead of regular ones. @#%! I'm hoping I just planted the wrong variety in the wrong spot and one of my other plants will end up being GB. If not, at least I know the NOT GB will probably taste good - I've never met a potato-leaf plant that I didn't like.

I hope some of the folks who got my Greater Baltimore plants at the GW swap plan to bring some of their GB toms to MAGTAG.

tjg911 · June 4, 2009

from what i have read over the years the only manure that can be used fresh is rabbit and llama. all other manure must be aged (i'd guess at least 4 months) or composted before using as the salts in the manure will draw water out of the plant roots and burn the plants.

fwiw i never add manure at any time other than the fall when the garden is done like late october. i add leaves also and then rototill and till again in spring.

tom

gflynn · June 4, 2009

Zana, Cecelia and Tom,

I believe that the manure was a year or more old. It was crawling with worms. Based on what I heard from the MD Extension Service and the folks on the Disease part of this forum I figure it is probably ammonia.

I did some tests and found the PH was normal the N low, K high and P high.

Mulched leaves or vinegar may help!

Cecelia,

Sorry to hear about the plant mix up. It may be obvious what it is later.

Greg

Cecilia_MD7a · June 8, 2009

Good news! I believe I was wrong about my Greater Baltimore - the more I examine it, the more it looks RL to me. I think what threw me is the fact that the leaves are large wide, and the indentations aren't very deep. But they are there. I compared the leaves with those of Cherokee Chocolate (RL) and Stupice (PL), and they resemble CC more than Stupice. So I hope I really do have Greater Baltimore.

Speaking of Stupice, I noticed a small green fruit on my plant! Maybe I'll have a ripe tomato by July 4th this year! I think I've only accomplished that goal once in my gardening lifetime, and that was with an Early Girl (ick).

Cecilia_MD7a · June 9, 2009

Oops, I meant Cherokee Purple. No Cherokee Chocolates this year.

gflynn · July 2, 2009

So I have been replanting many of my tomatoes even up to this weekend. I have lost many to my ammonia problem, however, I have some that are not affected in Pots and in a few places. I will at least have:

Chrerokee Green
Persimmon
Prue
White Current
Sophie's Choice
and Experimental stuff.

Hopefully I will have:
Taxi and unlikely I will have a Cherokee Purple.

No Emilys!

I may have some for seed at the end of the year but that is still up in the air. I have some folks who I gave plants who may give me a few samples but that's very hit or miss.

Greg

tjg911 · July 2, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by gflynn

I believe that the manure was a year or more old. It was crawling with worms. Based on what I heard from the MD Extension Service and the folks on the Disease part of this forum I figure it is probably ammonia.

i disagree, ammonia would be high in fresh not year old manure. if that manure was a year old there's no way it would burn your plants. also only old aged manure would have worms in it, fresh manure is too 'hot' for worms as it is for plant roots. fresh manure is not good to use but year old is not going to hurt your plants. maybe some chemical was sprayed on it to kill weeds but i'd expect that to harm worms?

do what i do and when you want to add it, i only add manure every 4-5 years due to the salts in it, do it in the fall when the garden is done. add some leaves and dig or till it under. come spring you are all set. as i said, llama and rabbit is the only manure you can add to the hole when it is fresh. heed the warning of using fresh manure around leafy greens etc.

greg if you need seeds pm me with your list.

tom

gflynn · July 2, 2009

Tom,

There are lots of factors. It's hard to say for certain because the stuff was piling up and the stuff on top may have been new while the stuff on the bottom may have been old.

I have considered the weed killer idea. I really don't know what to think but since two reputable sources were for Ammonia I am tending toward that conclusion.

Thanks for the offer of seeds. I have many of our standards that I have saved over many years but I am concerned about the new experiemental types like Berkley Tye Die Pink. I am sure some kind soul will give me some of these if I ask for next year but I wanted to offer them as seedlings and for that I would really need a growout to produce sufficient quantities.

I pulled the BTD Pink and repotted it and it seem to recover so I replanted it last week. It just might produce. We will see!

Greg

Cecilia_MD7a · July 3, 2009

While it hardly qualifies as a trial/tribulation, I'm not gonna get a July 4th tomato after all, unless Stupice miraculously ripens overnight. But I'm happy to say that every single one of my plants, except for Church, is fruiting. Maybe it's just a late bloomer, but Church was a dud for me last year. If it doesn't produce well this season, I'm abandoning it. The good news is, both Greater Baltimore and Chesapeake seem to be very productive.

I found a yummy-sounding recipe for a cheesy Tomato Pie in a magazine the other day, which I thought I'd try for MAGTAG. Then I remembered that my oven hasn't been working for two years, and a piecrust won't fit in my toaster oven. Sigh. Guess I'll have my hands full with the BLT bar anyway.

June 4, 2009	#6
Zana Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Southwestern Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,521	You may want to try watering with a solution of 1 part vinegar to 3-5 parts vinegar....not straight on the plant. Vinegar acting as a neutralising agent. I found the following when I googled "neutralising raw horse manure" on the www.tenthousandpercent.com website : Understanding the Role of Manure Manure can be a helpful and inexpensive addition to your compost batch. It’s important to understand the nature and role of manure before deploying it, however, to avoid potential serious problems. -Manure is animal waste. As noted above, only cow (not steer or commercial) and horse manure are acceptable among mammal wastes. Chicken and other bird manure is also good for composting. Cow manure has properties as an antifungal compost additive and a unique complement of nutrients, and is therefore widely sought. -Rule #1 : Never apply raw manure directly to your soil. This is a grave error made by many, from commercial farms to home gardeners. Direct application of raw manure to soil has the following negative effects : -Raw manure contains numerous pathogens that will be passed on to your crop – potentially a deadly situation in the case of vegetables like leafy greens that grow low to the earth. One has only to recall the recent salmonella outbreaks to understand the gravity of this problem. -Raw manure contains weed seeds that you likely do not want to introduce into your growing environment. -Raw manure contains high concentrations of nitrogen that can cause ‘nitrogen burn,’ wherein the plant uptakes a harmful amount of the element and suffers what is in effect chemical burn, and ‘junkie plant syndrome,’ wherein a plant will get ‘high’ after the first application of raw manure, growing rapidly, and then ‘crash,’ wearing out and withering rapidly before producing a substantial harvest. Both of these effects substantially reduce your yield and biologically damage your plants. Last edited by Zana; June 4, 2009 at 02:27 PM. Reason: adding info

June 4, 2009	#8
tjg911 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: zone 5b northwest connecticut Posts: 2,570	from what i have read over the years the only manure that can be used fresh is rabbit and llama. all other manure must be aged (i'd guess at least 4 months) or composted before using as the salts in the manure will draw water out of the plant roots and burn the plants. fwiw i never add manure at any time other than the fall when the garden is done like late october. i add leaves also and then rototill and till again in spring. tom __________________ I need a hero I’m holding out for a hero ‘til the end of the night He’s gotta be strong And he’s gotta be fast And he’s gotta be fresh from the fight I need a hero I’m holding out for a hero ‘til the morning light He’s gotta be sure And it’s gotta be soon And he’s gotta be larger than life

June 3, 2009	#1
gflynn MAGTAG™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Posts: 437	Troubles and Tribulations This year I got a bunch of Horse Manure and dumped into the garden and I even added a new garden that is laced with the stuff. After planting I found that the new growth began to curl. This disturbing news caused me to unearth the plants, wash off the roots and replant them in pots temporarily. So far they have not recovered and I have removed a portion of soil from the top of the beds and replanted other plants. The sad thing is that some of these plants were not replaceable so I may be sporting the same old variaties I had last year for lack of the new stuff. If any of them recover I will find a spot for them but this will at least delay my season. On the bright side next year, the soil will be great :-) The MD extension service and folks on Tomatoville think its ammonia that with disapate in a few weeks so I should be ok long term. Also, I shouldn't be having deer problems since I have everything well protected this year! We shall see!

June 4, 2009	#3
aninocentangel Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: 8a Coastal SC Posts: 251	Maybe if you water it extra heavy extra often it will help dissipate the ammonia faster? Sorry your plants didn't handle the poo well.

June 4, 2009	#5
rxkeith Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Back in da U.P. Posts: 1,839	this is interesting. i just planted some of my plants yesterday. i got a pickup load of horse manure from a neighbor. i put a shovel or so in the hole, and mixed it up, before planting. then i put a ring of manure around each plant for mulch, and slow feed. my plants weren't in the best of shape to begin with due to a few things, and i have back ups for most of them. i will keep an eye on them. keith

June 4, 2009	#7
Cecilia_MD7a MAGTAG™ Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 400	Sorry for your setback, Greg - you have my sympathies. I hope all this rain does the trick. I assume that fresh manure is a "green" in compost parlance, correct? Maybe you could mix in some "brown" (mulched leaves?) to the garden if the rain doesn't take care of the problem. Your problem makes tomato trials and tribulations sound trivial (nice alliteration, hun?). I checked the map I made of my garden and realized that the plant I believed to be "Greater Baltimore" has potato leaves instead of regular ones. @#%! I'm hoping I just planted the wrong variety in the wrong spot and one of my other plants will end up being GB. If not, at least I know the NOT GB will probably taste good - I've never met a potato-leaf plant that I didn't like. I hope some of the folks who got my Greater Baltimore plants at the GW swap plan to bring some of their GB toms to MAGTAG.

June 8, 2009	#10
Cecilia_MD7a MAGTAG™ Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 400	Good news! I believe I was wrong about my Greater Baltimore - the more I examine it, the more it looks RL to me. I think what threw me is the fact that the leaves are large wide, and the indentations aren't very deep. But they are there. I compared the leaves with those of Cherokee Chocolate (RL) and Stupice (PL), and they resemble CC more than Stupice. So I hope I really do have Greater Baltimore. Speaking of Stupice, I noticed a small green fruit on my plant! Maybe I'll have a ripe tomato by July 4th this year! I think I've only accomplished that goal once in my gardening lifetime, and that was with an Early Girl (ick).

June 9, 2009	#11
Cecilia_MD7a MAGTAG™ Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 400	Oops, I meant Cherokee Purple. No Cherokee Chocolates this year.

July 2, 2009	#12
gflynn MAGTAG™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Posts: 437	So I have been replanting many of my tomatoes even up to this weekend. I have lost many to my ammonia problem, however, I have some that are not affected in Pots and in a few places. I will at least have: Chrerokee Green Persimmon Prue White Current Sophie's Choice and Experimental stuff. Hopefully I will have: Taxi and unlikely I will have a Cherokee Purple. No Emilys! I may have some for seed at the end of the year but that is still up in the air. I have some folks who I gave plants who may give me a few samples but that's very hit or miss. Greg

July 3, 2009	#15
Cecilia_MD7a MAGTAG™ Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 400	While it hardly qualifies as a trial/tribulation, I'm not gonna get a July 4th tomato after all, unless Stupice miraculously ripens overnight. But I'm happy to say that every single one of my plants, except for Church, is fruiting. Maybe it's just a late bloomer, but Church was a dud for me last year. If it doesn't produce well this season, I'm abandoning it. The good news is, both Greater Baltimore and Chesapeake seem to be very productive. I found a yummy-sounding recipe for a cheesy Tomato Pie in a magazine the other day, which I thought I'd try for MAGTAG. Then I remembered that my oven hasn't been working for two years, and a piecrust won't fit in my toaster oven. Sigh. Guess I'll have my hands full with the BLT bar anyway.