Kumato

[NarnianGarden]

I wonder if Kumato is related to Chocmande, another dark marroon tomato that's available in the supermarkets in Europe. (grown in Spain mostly) ..
It sure tastes good in the middle of winter.. almost like the real thing!
As I mentioned in another thread, my attempt to grow it from seed failed, though... The seedling withered and died.

[travis]

It appears most people grow a couple of F2s and after very casual observation declare "close enough" and assume stability of both the F2 and by assumption, the F1.

Bull hocky!

I've grown several F2, F3, F4, and F5 plants of both Kumato and Brandy Boy.

In both varieties, I've observed segregation particularly in leaf shapes and disease susceptibility on the Brandy Boy, and as Fred said, stem color on the Kumato, including a few glass green anthocyanin-free stems, which is an interesting phenomenon if one knows anything about modern hybrid seed production.

Also on the Kumato F-gens, I noticed slight differences in fruit shape, fruit size, leaf edge seration, erectness of foliage, depth of green shade in foliage, and degree of crack resistance in the fruit, particularly cuticle cracking.

It takes more than casual observation an unfounded suspicion of tomato breeders to declare an F1 hybrid to be "stable."

[travis]

Sorry ... double posted.

@Someone way earlier in this thread whose comments recent commenters seem to be discussing.

For an F1 hybrid to be stable, both parents would have to be exactly the same, unless it was an utterly rare mutant or something.

An F2 hybrid, however, at least stands a slim chance of being stable. Somewhat more likely, however, an F2 may look, taste, and behave like the F1, but still have hidden recessive genes that are not expressed. It's possible someone could breed it out several generations and have it appear to be stable (and not be, although it's more likely to be stable in each successive generation). To show how likely I think this whole scenario is, though, I think it's more likely that the tomato was improperly crossed and that you're dealing with one of the stable parent lines. However, I think it's more likely that it's not stable and the differences were subtle. However, I think it's equally likely that there's more than one Kumato tomato and that at least one of them is stable. At the very least, there are two varieties of Kumato (a medium-sized round one, and a cherry). Are you all talking about the regular one or the cherry, or something else?

[kurt]

Soon when I get the resizing option on wifes Iphone downpackI will post images of Kumatos I have growing now.They are almost 8ft now and about 30 maters/per.These plants(seeds) came from a Canadian source about 2011 from a market here in Miami and the name Sygenta was on the package.They are at F8 and through the years they have changed somewhat but kept tru to the mahogany/green,can be eaten early,late or three weeks later from counter.The only difference I see are some of the maters did no retain or show the prominent dark shoulders as earlier plants did.I have to isolate them since they are not that user friendly(the dark green foilage seems to be a magnet for bugs,molds,ailments.Definitely a greenhouse mater.It is a must gro every season.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

I wonder if Kumato is related to Chocmande, another dark marroon tomato that's available in the supermarkets in Europe. (grown in Spain mostly) ..
It sure tastes good in the middle of winter.. almost like the real thing!
As I mentioned in another thread, my attempt to grow it from seed failed, though... The seedling withered and died.

Below is a link from here where Vladimir was doing his Spanish Project ,his seeds from Baikal in Spain and Ilex,from Spain,my source of Spanish varieties via the SSE Yearbook,was commenting about Chocomande and also showing pictures/

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...ight=Chocmande

Andrey in Belarus also sent me a small black /brown cherry called Viagra, and another one he called blackish, called Chornaya Lakomla,also a cherry, and Matic from Slovenia who is also a TV member sent me one he called Cokoladni (Chocolate) and his description is

(meaning simply "Chocolate", translated from Serbian. It originates from Ukraine by the Black sea area. I assume the name was simply translated from one of the black varieties from there. Light dark colours and medium-sized. )

I did a wonderful trade with Matic which started out elsewhere.

I confess that the one I'm looking forward to the most is a black cherry multiflora and the person, also a TV member,who sent it to me for trial and said,please do not share seeds with anyone else,so I had someone post my property again and also set up these motion detector things you attach to trees that take pictures both night and day, and I'm fully prepared to put out an APB for anyone or any critter .

I mean what happens if a bird or deer or mouse or vole or chipmunk or fox or wolf, etc., eats some fallen fruits, and then "runs" with it,as it were.


I also know a place where another black cherry multiflora is being sold, and sent him that link as well, and here's that link

http://loghouseplants.com/plants/sho...cherry-tomato/

Carolyn,who does love her multifloras., and editing to add for Ilex and Gerardo in particular and Ican't remem which of my group e-mail seed producers is doing it this summer,but that L51 that Ilex sent me is also a multiflora, and darn,I should have had Rob who raises my seedlings for me add that one, but darn, there are 17 of them already and what would I have deleted? So 17 plants of great ones, and just me to eat them, well,I can make a few phone calls and let some come up here and pick, but fact is if I'm distributing seeds for certain varieties, especially the newest ones,I want to know their traits and how they taste myself, so fingers crossed for a good growing summer, especially in May when I hope the lows are not in the 20's as they have been.

[carolyn137]

and editing to add for Ilex and Gerardo in particular and Ican't remem which of my group e-mail seed producers is doing it this summer,but that L51 that Ilex sent me is also a multiflora, and darn,I should have had Rob who raises my seedlings for me add that one, but darn, there are 17 of them already and what would I have deleted? So 17 plants of great ones, and just me to eat them, well,I can make a few phone calls and let some come up here and pick, but fact is if I'm distributing seeds for certain varieties, especially the newest ones,I want to know their traits and how they taste myself, so fingers crossed for a good growing summer, especially in May when I hope the lows are not in the 20's as they have been.

********

It turns out when I checked the spread sheet that I didn't list that L51 multiflora,so Gerardo,you're it when it comes to saving seeds.

Carolyn

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by shule1

@Someone way earlier in this thread whose comments recent commenters seem to be discussing.

For an F1 hybrid to be stable, both parents would have to be exactly the same, unless it was an utterly rare mutant or something.

An F2 hybrid, however, at least stands a slim chance of being stable. Somewhat more likely, however, an F2 may look, taste, and behave like the F1, but still have hidden recessive genes that are not expressed. It's possible someone could breed it out several generations and have it appear to be stable (and not be, although it's more likely to be stable in each successive generation). To show how likely I think this whole scenario is, though, I think it's more likely that the tomato was improperly crossed and that you're dealing with one of the stable parent lines. However, I think it's more likely that it's not stable and the differences were subtle. However, I think it's equally likely that there's more than one Kumato tomato and that at least one of them is stable. At the very least, there are two varieties of Kumato (a medium-sized round one, and a cherry). Are you all talking about the regular one or the cherry, or something else?

[QUOTE]An F2 hybrid, however, at least stands a slim chance of being stable[/QUOTE]
That is what I said too. There is a chance or scientifically speaking a "probability"

but still have hidden recessive genes that are not expressed. It's possible someone could breed it out several generations and have it appear to be stable

Yeah, well. how do we know and care what/where the the hidden genes are? We only judge by the final product = fruit.

Travis (Bill) also mentioned :

Also on the Kumato F-gens, I noticed slight differences in fruit shape, fruit size, leaf edge seration, erectness of foliage, depth of green shade in foliage, and degree of crack resistance in the fruit, particularly cuticle cracking.

Again, those are minor things that breeders like Travis and Fred can identify. But we , the backyard gardeners, just look at the fruit. Talks like a duck, walks like a duck .. it is a duck.

But then, we are not going to sell the seed and claim that it is stable. It is just backyard hobby thing. I am growing Kumato F3. We shall see how it will compare to its grandma
Gardeneer

@Gardeneer

Noted.

@Carolyn

I'm surprised where seeds end up even without chipmunks and stuff. I dried and bagged my seeds at our dining room table, and months later, way over by the door, I see a tomato growing in the soil with one of our houseplants. I was so surprised, I left it there. Anyway, it's possible I put it there on purpose and forgot about it, though. I do weird things sometimes, just because.

[NarnianGarden]

Thanks Carolyn, but that variety in Vladimir's picture is not Chocmande -he admits a few posts later that he had a mix-up and the variety pictured was something else (I forgot the name already)

two years ago I attempted to grow a supermarket cherry / grape tom that was black and grown in Spain. What I got - very vigorous plant with long trusses of elongared cherries w/ thick-ish skin. I wonder if they were the cherry Kumato seeds I tried...
Anyway, nice taste, and beautiful plant, but won't re-grow it, with so many delicious dark cherries abounding (Purple Bumblebees etc...)

[Fred Hempel]

Your results sound like what happened when I grew Mini Kumato F2 for fun.

I really liked the tomatoes on a few of the plants.

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

Thanks Carolyn, but that variety in Vladimir's picture is not Chocmande -he admits a few posts later that he had a mix-up and the variety pictured was something else (I forgot the name already)

two years ago I attempted to grow a supermarket cherry / grape tom that was black and grown in Spain. What I got - very vigorous plant with long trusses of elongared cherries w/ thick-sih skin. I wonder if they were the cherry Kumato seeds I tried...
Anyway, nice taste, and beautiful plant, but won't re-grow it, with so many delicious dark cherries abounding (Purple Bumblebees etc...)

[Andrey_BY]

Carolyn,
there are so many Russian tomato varieties being distributed in Ukraine and Belarus so I believe your Cokoladi from Slovenia via Ukraine is actually Shokoladnyi (Chocoladnyi) from Russia It is a Russian CV with blackish fruit. As well as my Chyornaya Lakomka tomato which I sent you years ago

[travis]

Gardeneer, there is a huge gulf of reality between saying "I know lots of people who say Brandy Boy is an OP or "stable hybrid" (whatever that means), and the facts. Same applies to Kumato.

One is rumor, the other is fact.

Moreover, there is no such thing as a "stable F2" since all F2s are 50% homogenou and 50% heterogenous.

I wish I could access my old photobucket so I could post several photos of Brandy Boy F2 leaf shapes. I had photos of 6 different leaf forms, one form per each F2 plant. Proof positive that Brandy Boy F1 is a true hybrid cultivar.

If I can get my laptop up and running properly, I will make another post demonstrating a prime example of a hybrid whose two parents are so similar that you might think it's an OP or a "stable hybrid" but where each parent in fact was bred to carry specific traits that when combined in a homozygous F1, work together to assemble the desired superior results. Yet when the F2s are grown, you will see the superior and the deleterious traits segregate out and recombine differently.

The resulting F2 fruits may appear similar enough to lead a casual observer to declare something like "Carlina Gold must be an OP or stable hybrid that the breeder calls a hybrid so he can breed cheap and sell high ... blah, blah, blah ..." But that sort of babble is unsubstantiated and a disservice to the breeder.

[travis]

Okay, I am going to use Carolina Gold (F1 hybrid) as the example.

Here is the release notice for the F1 hybrid cultivar, composed of two, open pollinated, true breeding lines: NC-1Y x NC-2Y:
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/pro...olina-Gold.pdf

Okay, here are the two release notices for the two individual breeding lines:

NC-1Y: http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/pro...lease-NC1Y.pdf

Note that NC-1Y is resistant to cuticle cracking (weather check, which is the fine line cracking that commonly appears on the shoulders of large, smooth, rounded shoulder type tomatoes).

Here is the release notice for the other parent to Carolina Gold, NC-2Y: http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/pro...lease-NC2Y.pdf

Note that NC-2Y is very similar to NC-1Y in that both carry tangerine flesh color genetics, both are large fruited, basically globe shaped although NC-2Y is described as slightly ovate, both are determinate, both are resistant to grey wall disorder, etc., etc.

Yet NC-2Y is susceptible to radial shoulder cracking and cuticle cracking (weather check), while NC-1Y is resistant to those two cracking disorders.

NC-2Y is used to increase fruit size. NC-1Y is used to control the cracking inherent in NC-2Y. Yet when F2 plants are grown out, the grower will get plants that ALL produce large, basically globe shaped, tangerine fleshed, uniform ripening fruit on determinate vines.

Since tangerine flesh, uniform ripening, and determinate growth patterns are all recessive traits, the grower might immediately assume "Oh, look here, Carolina Gold is a 'stable hybrid' or an open pollinated variety that the breeder or the seed company is passing off as a hybrid!" NOPE, not true. Unsubstantiated assumption.

Also note in the pedigree brackets for each of the two parent lines, some of the parental inputs are the same, and other parental inputs are different**

Again, I wish I could access my 2012 photobucket pictures, one of which shows 4 tomatoes, side by side, off two different Carolina Gold F2 vines. Two of the tomatoes off one of the vines are perfect replicas of Carolina Gold F1 tomatoes, the other two tomatoes off the second vine are duplicates in every respect EXCEPT the upper half of the shoulders on those two tomatoes are riddled with cuticle skin cracking (weather check), showing the recombination of the deleterious trait from NC-2Y.

There are many other examples I can give of hybrid tomatoes created from two closely similar breeding lines where one line imparts certain desirable traits, and the other line imparts different desirable traits, so that the F2 plants may appear very similar to casual observation. BUT in reality there is segregation and recombination of genetics active for several F-generations, contributed from each of the two parents regardless of whether the tomatoes from each F2, F3, etc. LOOK THE SAME ... they are not the same genetically.

** how can the individual recombinations be the same genetically when each of the two parent lines are comprised of partially different parental inputs???

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

Thanks Carolyn, but that variety in Vladimir's picture is not Chocmande -he admits a few posts later that he had a mix-up and the variety pictured was something else (I forgot the name already)

two years ago I attempted to grow a supermarket cherry / grape tom that was black and grown in Spain. What I got - very vigorous plant with long trusses of elongared cherries w/ thick-ish skin. I wonder if they were the cherry Kumato seeds I tried...
Anyway, nice taste, and beautiful plant, but won't re-grow it, with so many delicious dark cherries abounding (Purple Bumblebees etc...)

Ilex had stated that Chocmande was a hybrid.

And then I asked Ilex if a hybrid couldn't also be a multiflora as kind of a more general question, and please look at post #55 for his response.

Yes, Vladimir did say there was a mixup, but answers were relating to...if it was Chocmande.

Carolyn