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Old August 12, 2006   #1
nctomatoman
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Default A thought - getting info from crosses...

I was pondering using crosses to determine whether very similar looking tomatoes are really the same. The thought came to me when thinking about the results of the Dwarf F1 cross project. New Big Dwarf was used in two crosses - with Carbon - producing Sleazy A (medium purple), and with Paul Robeson, producing Happy (medium brown).

Sleazy A is a large (one pound), oblate pink tomato. Happy is a medium, very convoluted red.

We have some interesting heirloom situations - the group of similar looking regular leaf bicolors (Georgia Streak, Pineapple, Ruby Gold, Burrackers, etc). We have a group of similar looking regular leaf large pinks (Brimmer, Ponderosa, Wins All, Sandul Moldovan, etc).

It may be interesting to do a cross of several of these to the same dwarf and then see the results in the F1. it certainly wouldn't be a water tight experiment - if the F1s are all very similar looking, we couldn't really conclude very much. However, if the F1s are quite different looking, it would confirm that even though the starting indeterminate heirlooms are similar looking, they are actually different varieties genetically.

Anyway, just a thought - Keith, what do you think? Those good at crossing (Patrina!), in your crossing, you could include a few of these in your efforts in the future, just for the fun of it...

This is what happens on a lazy Sat morning after a few cups of strong coffee! Just dreaming of tomato genetics...
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Old August 12, 2006   #2
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Sounds like a good idea Craig. Weather, good amounts of pollen etc permitting I'd enjoy trying some of those types of crosses. We'd need help with the growouts of course

I'll try to look for similar large types as I go thru seeds for sowing this season.

Patrina
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Old August 12, 2006   #3
spudleafwillie
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Default A thought - getting info from crosses...

Craig and Patrina,
I'd be willing to supply seed from 10 to 15 similar PL's in my collection and to grow out some (5) of the F1 crosses here in NM. I can try a few crosses here but make no guarantees on getting crosses to take as I have modest experience and success doing it. Oops forgot Keith too!!

I will need help with the growouts too as I'll be growing out about 100 PLs in my collection in 2007 with seed that is 8-10 years old . Maybe Tom Micholas (tomstrees on T'ville) has some space and would be willing to grow a few out too as he too likes PL's. I think there are a few more "spudleaf fanatics" like me out there that would help with the growouts, Maybe Bully and Dunkel and others.?

Craig, you have last year's copy of my spudleaf database so use your expertise in choosing similar varieties. I probably can supply 10 -20 seeds( possibly a little more) of each variety for the initial crosses. Is that enough seed?? Call me on the phone if you have any questions or need more info.
I'm growing out this year (93) different PL varieties that may not be readily available elsewhere so again, check with me ASAP with your choices. .

Patrina, what is your deadline for starting seeds this fall?? PM me so I can try hard to meet your deadline if at all possible. I'll need your snailmail info so I can ship seeds in the next week or two in time for you to start the crosses for her fall growing season in 2007
Looking forward to actively participating in this crossing project.

Best regards,
Bill Malin (aka Spudleaf Willie)
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Old August 12, 2006   #4
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Hi Bill

Do you have any 2 PL varieties that you suspect "might" be the same but just differently named? I'd certainly be interested trying to do those crosses with a dwarf for the reasons that Craig mentioned.

Not only would it give clues in the F1 stage to look for any differences, but it may bring out something interesting for the Dwarf Project in the F2s and beyond! :wink:

I included a couple PL varieties in the initial dwarf crosses because I'd really like to see some PL dwarfs out there

I'll PM you with my address details - I'll start sowing seeds on September 4th, or as soon as they reach me after that date.

Patrina
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Old August 13, 2006   #5
spudleafwillie
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Default 3 similar yellow PLs that may be the same variety with a dif

Patrina.
As you requested my suggestion follows for similar PLs for a crossing project;
I have long suspected that the the yellow PL varieties, Sparks Yellow and Yellow Brandywine may be the same as the PL variety Elbe which has origins around the Elbe River in Germany (ca1880's)

Both Sparks Yellow and Yellow Brandywine are of American origin and may have been brought to America by German settlers and renamed here, no concrete proof but a definite possibility. All three varieties are large, light yellow, flattened beefsteaks with many multi-compartmented seed locules.

A cross with Yellow Dwarf Champion (dwarf yellow rugose) would simplify both color and PL segregation possibilities in the F1 and beyond generations.

Other cross possibilities would be with two other non yellow varieties, Dwarf Recessive (PL Rugose) and Red House Free Standing which some think is a rugose variety .
However I strongly beleive Red House Free Standing to be PL Rugose because of the following two leaf characteristics:

1) The secondary and tertiary leaflets behind the terminal, or first leaflet are single leaflets on a single stem and not compound leaflets on a single stem. This single vs compound secondary and tertiary leaflet pattern is characteristic of PL plants.

2) Although Red House Free Standing does not have the typical completely smooth edged leaf as Kimberly, Magnus, Elbe and Stump of the World, Red House Free Standing is very similar to the leaf on Dwarf Recessive (PL Rugose) and other varieties with some indentations on the leaf edge.

I have seen PL leaves with up to 6 or 8 different variations of smooth or slightly pointed indentations (like a white oak leaf). These variations include the "thumbs" or "elephant ears" which are the fused seconday leaflets right behind the 1st or primary leaf on many PL's.

Many times PL leaves in early development exhibit the serrated appearance and then have completely smooth edges when mature. I'll take some pics tomorrow of the various types including Red House Free Standing and Dwarf Recessive but wont be able to post them until early Oct. when my new Computer arrives. (another long story).
I will have fresh seed for Elbe, Dwarf Recessive, and Red House Free Standing, but no fresh seed for Yellow Brandywine PL and Dwarf Yellow Champion. Perhaps Craig or you have the YBW and DYC Patrina.

Will 10-20 seeds of each variety be enough Patrina??

Looking forward to actively participating in this exciting project.

Best regards,
Bill
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Old August 13, 2006   #6
Patrina_Pepperina
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Bill, they sound interesting, so let's go for it. I don't have Elbe, Sparks Yellow, Yellow Brandywine PL or Yellow Dwarf Champion. My Yellow Brandywine last year was RL and the fruit was orange/red, so it must have been crossed. But I could try some more of the seeds and see if I get any PL. I could use Golden Dwarf Champion, which is light yellow.

I'd also be happy to try crossing Dwarf Recessive with Red House Free Standing (sounds like it has a similar leaf pattern to my Don Juan from last season). Is RHFS a large fruited variety? I'd also be interested in crossing it with other PL large fruited different colour varieties It will give us some PL dwarfs.

I think 10 seeds of each is sufficient, because only one PL plant will be used for pollen. I have used more than one plant for collecting pollen in the past, but it's not a good idea if I want to be exact, so I won't do that anymore.

Patrina
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Old August 13, 2006   #7
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Default Seeds for yellow PL x Dwarfs crossing project

Patrina,
I had a chance to look through my PL database for more yellow PLs that are similar to Brandywine Yellow and Sparks Yellow. I found one more large yellow beefsteak called Childers, a family heirloom of the Childers family from West Virginia. It was unnamed and called "Big Yellow" until named Childers by Mrs W.G. Childers in 1980 It fits in the same category as the yellow Brandywine and Sparks Yellow, all 3 being of American origin.

I also located fresh seeds for 2 strains of Yellow Brandywine PL, and seed for Golden Dwarf Champion. I will be sending the following varieties of seeds for the proposed crosses:
1. Elbe (PL)
2. Sparks Yellow (PL)
3. Childers (PL)
4. Yellow Brandywine #! (platfoot strain) {PL}
5. Yellow Brandywine #2 (str. unknown/not platfoot{PL}
6. Dwarf Recessive (dwarf PL rugose)
7. Golden Dwarf Champion (dwarf rugose), yellow
8. Red House Free Standing (dwarf rugose PL), red
9. Spudagold Strawberry(intermediate RL/PL), apricot

"Bill, they sound interesting, so let's go for it. I don't have Elbe, Sparks Yellow, Yellow Brandywine PL or Yellow Dwarf Champion." "My Yellow Brandywine last year was RL and the fruit was orange/red, so it must have been crossed. But I could try some more of the seeds and see if I get any PL."

Patrina, I have seeds for the 2 Yellow Brandwine PL's

"I could use Golden Dwarf Champion, which is light yellow."

Patrina, I have seeds for the Golden Dwarf Champion

"I'd also be happy to try crossing Dwarf Recessive with Red House Free Standing (sounds like it has a similar leaf pattern to my Don Juan from last season). Is RHFS a large fruited variety?"

Bill could use some of your Don Juan dwarf seed if available.
The cross of RHFS and Dwarf recessive sounds like a super idea, go for it!!

Yes RHFS is a large red flattened beefsteak, I estimate 8-10 oz as its just blushing today. The plant has set 4 or 5 clusters of fruit so its a good yielder too. I cant speak for the flavor yet!!

"I'd also be interested in crossing it with other PL large fruited different colour varieties Very Happy It will give us some PL dwarfs"

I (Bill M) also have seeds for PL variants for Black Krim, Black from Tula, Russian 117, Cherokee Purple.

And a real suprise this week of finding a huge apricot colored (intermediate RL/PL leaf shape) beefsteak of 13 oz I have named Spudagold Strawberry that was supposed to be German Red Strawberry. Dont know if it was a seed mixup or accidental cross with a PL somewhere. I cut it open and saved seed today. Dont know if it will be stable or not, only future growouts will tell. I have pics and will send them in Oct.

Do you want me to send some seed to cross with Dwarf Recessive to try to improve the leaf form?? It would probably make a huge yellow or gold colored dwarf !! If you do make the Spudagold Strawberry x Dwarf Recessive cross, please save this one for me to grow out the F!'s!! and I'll send some F2s back for you and a few others to grow.

"I think 10 seeds of each is sufficient, because only one PL plant will be used for pollen."

OK, ten seeds of each variety I'll send ASAP.
Got to run as its 3:30 am here in NM and I'm due up at 7
Best regards,
Bill
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Old August 13, 2006   #8
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Bill, quick reply - when I wrote "I could use Golden Dwarf Champion" I meant that I could use it instead of Yellow Dwarf Champion because I already have seeds from growing GDChampion last season. It was the female parent of Bashful, Sneezy and Dopey.

You are welcome to some seeds of Don Juan, a gold striped pink plum shape, and the leaves were definitely a type of PL. However it is a determinate bush, rather than a dwarf, although not very tall... ?!

Patrina
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Old August 13, 2006   #9
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Patrina,
OK on using the Golden Dwarf Champion, I wont send seed for the Yellow Dwarf Champion

"You are welcome to some seeds of Don Juan, a gold striped pink plum shape, and the leaves were definitely a type of PL. However it is a determinate bush, rather than a dwarf,"

Is DW determinate and have leaf form like the PL's Southern Night and Blue Fruit or bushy with wiry stems and small rounded leaves like Juliet PL??

Send the Don Juan seeds when conveinent as I cant grow them out until our 2007 growing season

Bill
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Old August 13, 2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spudleafwillie
Is DW determinate and have leaf form like the PL's Southern Night and Blue Fruit or bushy with wiry stems and small rounded leaves like Juliet PL??
I can't really remember Bill - I did take a pic of the plant, but lost it when the home computer recently died. In fact I lost all of last season's pics except those I posted in Forums which are stored in my Yahoo Photo Album. I took photos of every variety, but posted so few!

http://au.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/fou.../ph//my_photos

Patrina
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Old August 13, 2006   #11
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I just posted in the Grumpy thread about the different coloured F1 that Lumierefrere (Barbara, IIRC) is getting, and now I'm feeling quite excited about this idea of Craigs!

For details, please see my post dated Monday August 14:

http://www.tomatoville.com/viewtopic.php?t=966&start=15

PP
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