A way to speed up hybridizing?

tgplp · February 28, 2012

Hi, I want to try my micro dwarf tomato crossing project again (I was working on it a year ago, but I had some sort of disease where the buds wouldn't open on the dwarfs)

I am growing some super dwarfs (Micro Tom, Hahms Gelbe Topftomate, etc.) to cross with the regular indeterminate that I am growing this summer. That means I will be able to grow the F1 seed out this winter, although I don't have room for a bunch of indeterminate plants in my house. So could I theoretically grow each indeterminate to about a foot tall, chop the tops off of them, and just use the first bloom/fruit to save seeds from, and discard the plant after I save seeds from the first fruit? This way I would be able to work on the F1 plants this winter, instead of waiting until next summer. Does that make any sense?

Taryn

doublehelix · February 29, 2012

It depends on what your goals are. I think anyone wanting to hybridize should plan out where they want to go with it. If you are looking for a lot of recessive traits, then one tomato from the F1 (F2 seeds) will not be enough for a successful grow-out. For example: if you are looking for a dwarf, clear skin, yellow, with stripes then you would need to grow at least 265 plants to collect all those genes in one plant.

You can grow just one F1 plant, but you should always grow a lot of F2 plants.

You can reduce the number of plants you need by using plants that are homozygous for the same recessive genes, but this lessens the diversity of the subsequent generations.

travis · February 29, 2012

What you propose makes perfect sense: to grow the F1 plants only so long as it takes to generate fruit from which to gather the F2 seeds for warm weather segregation/selections.

**Tom Wagner** · March 1, 2012

As a direct response to Taryn's question...I can offer my two cents worth, but others may see some hints that could be applied to their situation.

Taryn and I are both in the PNW. Maybe I know a little bit of her frustration in getting tomatoes to bloom...let alone set fruit that ripens.

I am putting quotes around Taryn's comments...

Quote:

Hi, I want to try my micro dwarf tomato crossing project again (I was working on it a year ago, but I had some sort of disease where the buds wouldn't open on the dwarfs)

Hope you do have more success this year on crossing...but I need more info on when and why the tomato buds wouldn't open. I have my hunches, but I will wait for a word or two to verify my suspicions.

Quote:

I am growing some super dwarfs (Micro Tom, Hahms Gelbe Topftomate, etc.) to cross with the regular indeterminate that I am growing this summer.

The Micro Tom would be a good one to cross...I was thinking of Dancing with Smurfs or some other blues that would make excellent combinations...the F-1 plants wouldn't be that significant but the F-2 population would be great to pick out some dwarfs with blue foliage and blue fruit...thinking of the name Micro Blues or Micro Brews....

Quote:

That means I will be able to grow the F1 seed out this winter, although I don't have room for a bunch of indeterminate plants in my house. So could I theoretically grow each indeterminate to about a foot tall, chop the tops off of them, and just use the first bloom/fruit to save seeds from, and discard the plant after I save seeds from the first fruit? This way I would be able to work on the F1 plants this winter, instead of waiting until next summer. Does that make any sense?

It would make good sense to make the crosses as early as possible in order to have F-1 seed to sow as soon as possible....say August at the latest...and grow some plants in six packs to harden off the plants to force them to put on an early bloom in the six pack...hand self the flower(s) to form a fruit...them pot up in a slightly bigger pot to finish off indoors during the months of October and November...hoping the fruit ripens by early to late December. All you need is a nubbin of a fruit...large enough for just a few seed. Growing the plants in a confined and small container eliminates any concern whether or not the vine would be indeterminate. Once a fruit sets the plant would not grow much at all...the benign stress would be perfect to finish the project. The F-2 seed extracted would then be sown in the following Spring for to select for those traits...dwarf and maybe blue.

Taryn, if you are anywhere near the Seattle area..I could help with your crosses or you could visit me and I could demonstrate my procedures. I could put the hybrid seedlings...yours and mine....in a greenhouse near Lake City Way...within the greater Seattle Metro area. I should sow seed of my Green Elf dwarf and BLUE GREEN....both green flesh...one dwarf and one blue...the first F-2 to be both green flesh, dwarf and blue could be called LITTLE ELFIN BLUE, or something in that vein. I like BABY SMURF also as a name.

Tom Wagner

doublehelix · March 1, 2012

Careful Bill, you are going to put your eye out with that thing.

ChrisK · March 1, 2012

Hey Taryn, the cross country Micro project offer still stands, too!

tgplp · March 4, 2012

Hey Guys,

Sorry I haven't been posting for a while, I've been having some serious problems with this computer/ this website. Not sure what's going on. The website isn't letting me post or send private messages...

Chris, I totally think we should do the cross country Micro project!!! That'd be great.

Tom, the tomatoes that wouldn't open their blossoms were some dwarfs I grew two winters ago that I was going to cross with some other tomatoes. I don't know why they wouldn't open... the plants would form lots of buds, and keep on growing, but the buds would never open. I have a Hardin's Miniature plant in a window that is just like that. I'm stumped as to why they aren't opening. I grew them under flourescent grow lights, gave them fish fertilizer, liquid seaweed, and earth juice bloom, but nothing worked. Any ideas?
Micro Blues/Brews sounds really cool! And yes, I am in the Seattle area- I'm near Woodinville, Duvall, etc. I'd love to work on this with you.

Well, I'm hoping this post works... sigh.

Taryn

Edit: Here are some more ideas...
We could try crossing Micro Tom with pear shaped varieties; I'm growing Medovaya Kaplya, I could cross it with that. It'd be neat to have a tiny plant with pear shaped tomatoes.
I would also like to cross Micro Tom with Isis Candy, to try and get a bicolor cherry on a tiny plant.

**Tom Wagner** · March 5, 2012

Thanks, Taryn, for wanting to participate in a local Crosstalk/Tomatoville Research breeding project. If we could get more locals involved, just think of the results we could post on this forum.

I travel to Monroe, Duval, Woodinville to grow tomatoes either outdoors or in the Greenhouse. So my travel could be coordinated with your schedule. It is a real problem getting local folks working with me to post on TVille. Wingnut is an exception!

I am always looking for local to try my varieties so that I can get seed from them. So if any readers have friends, family, or connections with folks in the greater Seattle area...please have them contact me...I will be growing many yet to be released tomatoes.

Breeding for dwarf tomato varieties would make sense for the PNW...I have several varieties that are both dwarf and trailing...hanging basket types. Early is a major need hear since we just don't get enough warm days.

ChrisK · March 5, 2012

The only tiny variety I have is Red Robin F1(?) so I'll start with that.

I agree, stripes and unusual shapes would be fun. I'll be growing ~40 varieties this year...too many crossing choices!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgplp

Hey Guys,

Sorry I haven't been posting for a while, I've been having some serious problems with this computer/ this website. Not sure what's going on. The website isn't letting me post or send private messages...

Chris, I totally think we should do the cross country Micro project!!! That'd be great.

Tom, the tomatoes that wouldn't open their blossoms were some dwarfs I grew two winters ago that I was going to cross with some other tomatoes. I don't know why they wouldn't open... the plants would form lots of buds, and keep on growing, but the buds would never open. I have a Hardin's Miniature plant in a window that is just like that. I'm stumped as to why they aren't opening. I grew them under flourescent grow lights, gave them fish fertilizer, liquid seaweed, and earth juice bloom, but nothing worked. Any ideas?
Micro Blues/Brews sounds really cool! And yes, I am in the Seattle area- I'm near Woodinville, Duvall, etc. I'd love to work on this with you.

Well, I'm hoping this post works... sigh.

Taryn

Edit: Here are some more ideas...
We could try crossing Micro Tom with pear shaped varieties; I'm growing Medovaya Kaplya, I could cross it with that. It'd be neat to have a tiny plant with pear shaped tomatoes.
I would also like to cross Micro Tom with Isis Candy, to try and get a bicolor cherry on a tiny plant.

tgplp · March 9, 2012

Chris, do you want me to send you some more dwarf seeds? I have a ton!

Tom, sounds exciting! I'd love to trial some of your varieties, or help breed some more. Unfortunately, my only family members who grow tomatoes are my grandparents, and they live in Pullman, WA. And the only reason they grow tomatoes is because I persuaded them to.

Taryn

**Tom Wagner** · March 10, 2012

Taryn,

Ask your folks if they would trial a few plants...one of each variety for you (me).

Jayc · March 27, 2012

I'm enjoying reading this thread, I hope it is ok to add this as it is along similar lines, I made several crosses last summer using Micro Gemma and Micro Tom. The resulting F1's were sown mid summer, they were grown on in fairly small pots in an unheated greenhouse, I pinched out the growing tip after 2 sets of flowers. With most plants I managed to pick a couple of ripe fruit before frost zapped them, seed produced varied in number from several hundred down to one. Needless to say they would have done better if I had had space in the house or somewhere else warm for them.

I started several lots of F2's Dec and Jan time. One batch are Micro Gemma x Sunshine Blue F2's, I only have 17 of these but it is enough to show quite a diverse bunch and it's got me truly hooked! I've decided to keep them all on if I can just to see and I'm growing some more of the same F1's so I can make a larger selection for mini types. Here's a couple of pictures of them, first picture they are quite young and being grown under lights. In the second they are a little bigger and now out in a greenhouse.

The last picture is of a Micro Tom x Dancing with Smurfs F1, I only had the one seed which thankfully germinated. The plant is quite small but great to see little fruit setting, fingers crossed for viable seed as the temps in the greenhouse are on the low side still.

I'm not very local to you guys, but if I can help let me know

**Tom Wagner** · March 29, 2012

JayC

That looks like a fun project. I took some tomato plants about that size to a greenhouse to finish off for my webmaster friend. One of the dwarf plants was a blue....cool.

February 28, 2012	#1
tgplp Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pacific North West, zone 8a Posts: 510	A way to speed up hybridizing? Hi, I want to try my micro dwarf tomato crossing project again (I was working on it a year ago, but I had some sort of disease where the buds wouldn't open on the dwarfs) I am growing some super dwarfs (Micro Tom, Hahms Gelbe Topftomate, etc.) to cross with the regular indeterminate that I am growing this summer. That means I will be able to grow the F1 seed out this winter, although I don't have room for a bunch of indeterminate plants in my house. So could I theoretically grow each indeterminate to about a foot tall, chop the tops off of them, and just use the first bloom/fruit to save seeds from, and discard the plant after I save seeds from the first fruit? This way I would be able to work on the F1 plants this winter, instead of waiting until next summer. Does that make any sense? Taryn

March 4, 2012	#7
tgplp Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pacific North West, zone 8a Posts: 510	Hey Guys, Sorry I haven't been posting for a while, I've been having some serious problems with this computer/ this website. Not sure what's going on. The website isn't letting me post or send private messages... Chris, I totally think we should do the cross country Micro project!!! That'd be great. Tom, the tomatoes that wouldn't open their blossoms were some dwarfs I grew two winters ago that I was going to cross with some other tomatoes. I don't know why they wouldn't open... the plants would form lots of buds, and keep on growing, but the buds would never open. I have a Hardin's Miniature plant in a window that is just like that. I'm stumped as to why they aren't opening. I grew them under flourescent grow lights, gave them fish fertilizer, liquid seaweed, and earth juice bloom, but nothing worked. Any ideas? Micro Blues/Brews sounds really cool! And yes, I am in the Seattle area- I'm near Woodinville, Duvall, etc. I'd love to work on this with you. Well, I'm hoping this post works... sigh. Taryn Edit: Here are some more ideas... We could try crossing Micro Tom with pear shaped varieties; I'm growing Medovaya Kaplya, I could cross it with that. It'd be neat to have a tiny plant with pear shaped tomatoes. I would also like to cross Micro Tom with Isis Candy, to try and get a bicolor cherry on a tiny plant. Last edited by tgplp; March 4, 2012 at 05:52 PM.

February 29, 2012	#2
doublehelix Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 190	It depends on what your goals are. I think anyone wanting to hybridize should plan out where they want to go with it. If you are looking for a lot of recessive traits, then one tomato from the F1 (F2 seeds) will not be enough for a successful grow-out. For example: if you are looking for a dwarf, clear skin, yellow, with stripes then you would need to grow at least 265 plants to collect all those genes in one plant. You can grow just one F1 plant, but you should always grow a lot of F2 plants. You can reduce the number of plants you need by using plants that are homozygous for the same recessive genes, but this lessens the diversity of the subsequent generations.

February 29, 2012	#3
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	What you propose makes perfect sense: to grow the F1 plants only so long as it takes to generate fruit from which to gather the F2 seeds for warm weather segregation/selections.

March 1, 2012	#5
doublehelix Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 190	Careful Bill, you are going to put your eye out with that thing.

March 1, 2012	#6
ChrisK Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,448	Hey Taryn, the cross country Micro project offer still stands, too!

March 5, 2012	#8
Tom Wagner Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: 8407 18th Ave West 7-203 Everett, Washington 98204 Posts: 1,157	Thanks, Taryn, for wanting to participate in a local Crosstalk/Tomatoville Research breeding project. If we could get more locals involved, just think of the results we could post on this forum. I travel to Monroe, Duval, Woodinville to grow tomatoes either outdoors or in the Greenhouse. So my travel could be coordinated with your schedule. It is a real problem getting local folks working with me to post on TVille. Wingnut is an exception! I am always looking for local to try my varieties so that I can get seed from them. So if any readers have friends, family, or connections with folks in the greater Seattle area...please have them contact me...I will be growing many yet to be released tomatoes. Breeding for dwarf tomato varieties would make sense for the PNW...I have several varieties that are both dwarf and trailing...hanging basket types. Early is a major need hear since we just don't get enough warm days.

March 9, 2012	#10
tgplp Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pacific North West, zone 8a Posts: 510	Chris, do you want me to send you some more dwarf seeds? I have a ton! Tom, sounds exciting! I'd love to trial some of your varieties, or help breed some more. Unfortunately, my only family members who grow tomatoes are my grandparents, and they live in Pullman, WA. And the only reason they grow tomatoes is because I persuaded them to. Taryn

March 10, 2012	#11
Tom Wagner Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: 8407 18th Ave West 7-203 Everett, Washington 98204 Posts: 1,157	Taryn, Ask your folks if they would trial a few plants...one of each variety for you (me).

March 29, 2012	#13
Tom Wagner Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: 8407 18th Ave West 7-203 Everett, Washington 98204 Posts: 1,157	JayC That looks like a fun project. I took some tomato plants about that size to a greenhouse to finish off for my webmaster friend. One of the dwarf plants was a blue....cool.