ramblings of a non-profit donation garden - Page 2

OneoftheEarls · January 18, 2011

I too work at a food bank and operate the local community garden for fresh food.

JackE · January 18, 2011

Well Howdy!

"First Fruits" - great name for your project -church-affiliated? Do you grow a variety of crops? Where are you located? Tell us about your project. First name?

Jack

David Marek · January 19, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackE

...spinosad... Mode of action is the same as bt - the insect must ingest it.

...It's been a real lifesaver for leaf miners because you can spray very close to harvest and is becoming the chemical of choice for spinach growers in the Rio Grande Valley - the spinach producing capital of the world!...

I have used Conserve (spinosad) in my line of work, mainly to kill thrips. You made reference in an earlier post that you had trouble controlling thrips (using spinosad). I had talked with growers and consultants who felt it was losing it's effectiveness because so many people were using it on such a wide variety of field crops. I figured we had a resistant population, and to some degree, I think we did. I perhaps did not take into account the importance of spraying at the correct life stage and proper repeat interval. We did, however have success with some other insecticides.

Some of the chemicals in our rotation, many are greenhouse only and cost prohibitive:
Pedestal- novaluron
Pylon- chlorfenapyr- approved for veggies in greenhouse, usually used as a miticide, $465/ pint!!! (I think I calculated it out one time and it cost about $5/ gallon finished spray)
Azatin- azadirictin- the active component from neem oil
Overture- Pyriolayl
And, of course, Conserve and some others from the below list

From UMass extension page:
Pesticide rotation options for management suggested by Dr. Raymond Cloyd, Kansas State University are:
* Spinosad (Conserve), Chlorfenapyr (Pylon), Abamectin (Avid), Methiocarb (Mesurol)
* Novaluron (Pedestal), Pyridalyl (Overture), Chlorfenapyr (Pylon), Spinosad (Conserve)
* Beauveria bassiana (BotaniGard/Naturalis), Acephate (Orthene), Spinosad (Conserve)
* Abamectin (Avid), Pyridalyl (Overture), Chlorfenapyr (Pylon), Spinosad (Conserve)
* Chlorpyrifos (DuraGuard), Novaluron (Pedestal), Abamectin (Avid), Bifenthrin (Talstar)

JackE, ever used Thiodan? (I think that's one of the ones that kinda makes ya twitch a bit)

Sorry to hear about your wife's cannas.

From another forum:

Quote:

Originally Posted by svalli

...I have had some of the peppers indoors all the time over two years now and those plants have been ravaged by thrips, which the pyrerethrins do not kill totally...

JackE · January 19, 2011

Hi David --

I haven't used most of the chems on the list except Conserve and Talstar. Our thrip problems - with the exception of the onion thrip - have not been the result of direct damage from the thrips themselves but rather as vectors of diseases - the Western Flower Thrip in particular, which I addressed earlier. My "War Against Flowers" has paid-off - but I still have bills from the divorce lawyer--- just kidding, 42 years of marriage. LOL

Luckily, I have a cooperative neighbor - his pasture is upwind and was loaded with host weeds. My biggest worry was killing his bahia grass, but I pulled it off with a selective broadleaf herbicide - and rotated the cows to another pasture.

The price is really something on a lot of these products all right - that herbicide, for example was $192/quart (which goes a long way though). I want to get some Sandea (halosulfuron methyl), which kills purple nut sedge and goes over-the top-on cucurbits - $400+ for a 10 oz bottle (but you only use 0.5 oz/acre), but I guess I'll wait for the generic :-).

We used to use Talstar (7.9% bifenthrin) which is on your list, to control the leafcutter ants (Atta texana), an incredibly destructive insect locally called "town ants." The subterranean colonies are enormous, they'll travel for hundreds of yards, work only at night and can devastate a whole field of young okra quickly. The only way to kill them is to flood the colony with gasoline (or other aromatic hyrocarbon), methyl bromide gas (now illegal) or insecticide. The chemical or gas is pumped or poured down their access hole(s).

Talstar isn't labelled for crops - there's a binder in the inerts to slow breakdown and provide residual effect - so we now use Brigade, which is a stronger concentration (26% bifen), labelled for many crops, for the ants as well. It takes about 5 gals of strong mix to temporarily slow-down a single hill -a hundred gallons+ for a large colony, which can cover a half-acre or more (but I haven't seen a colony like that since I was a kid.)

They don't eat the leaves, but use them to grow a fungis which they do eat. They are, thankfully, very selective. Their natural forage is youpon brush, but they really love many ornamentals -hibiscus and gardenia in particular. They will strip a huge shrub down to bare limbs in a couple hours - years ago, before A/C, we could sometimes actually hear them working outside, stripping and chopping-up leaves.

I guess they have a place in the ecosystem - but so do I! :-)

Jack

JackE · January 19, 2011

David -- I just looked at your list again and noticed another one we use - Orthene(acephate 75). You must be in the ornamental greenhouse business?

The EPA banned it from food crops in the US a few years ago (they still use it all over the world on food crops, including tomato transplants in Canada - who is at least as tough on chems as we are) but it's still available in the US for fire ant control - dusted on the mound or as a spray. Now sold under various names (Surrender, Hi Yield Ant Killer etc). It's without question the best fire ant killer there is, but we can't use it anywhere near the food crops, not even in pathways(its systemic), and we really miss it!

It's not very toxic itself, but it breaks down into a fairly long-life residual chemical (can't remember the name - starts with "M") which caused cancer in lab rats when fed to them in massive quanties over a long time. Like you would have to eat several pounds a day of it for a year - or something like that! I don't miss Diazinon, because bifen does as well without polluting groundwater, but I admit that losing Orthene really hurt!

I know as a fact that it's legally used in Mexico on vegetables shipped to the US (despite random - VERY random - testing - and even then the offending grower just ships under another name after being banned). But American growers can't use it. It's unfair to let the mexican produce in without being tested.

That's the sort of thing, though, that has opened-up new opportunities for organic growers. If I had to make a living in the produce business today, as a small grower, I would grow organically and sell retail-direct to a suburban market. That's where the bucks are now! My friend in Houston gets $5/# for tomatoes!!! He earns every penny though :-).

Jack

OneoftheEarls · January 19, 2011

Quote:

"First Fruits" - great name for your project -church-affiliated? Do you grow a variety of crops? Where are you located? Tell us about your project. First name?

The food pantry and First Fruits operate off a church's non-profit, yes.

We grow hundreds of crops. We are in northern MI.

Here's a link that tell some...
http://45thparallelseeds.webs.com/

Earl

JackE · January 19, 2011

Do y'all put a donation can out, Earl? We do. How many growers in First Fruits?

Nice-looking website. We have a page on Facebook (FB search: Gardeners for Jesus). We bought a website from Yahoo, but didn't have anyone who knew how to develop it, so we dropped it.

Jack

OneoftheEarls · January 19, 2011

Donation can IF I do a public appearance like in photo. We have donation canisters at local businesses...small town.

I am a member of the local garden club and they also donate as well as individual members from there. I supply them seed

....they love me...lol

JackE · January 19, 2011

We're in a very small town too -- Woodville, TX, population 2800, about 125 miles NE of Houston. Our whole county has less than 20K population, so we are restricted in how much funds we can raise.

This is a very poor area - most families receive some form of govt assistance. Per capita income is less than half the national average. The only significant private employer is the timber industry. They're drilling a lot of gas wells here now, but not hiring many local people.

So, there's a need for affordable produce here - and we have to keep our own production costs down too. Gardeners for Jesus is a project of Hillister Baptist Church and we operate under the supervision of a governing committee.

Jack

ireilly · January 19, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackE

It's not very toxic itself, but it breaks down into a fairly long-life residual chemical (can't remember the name - starts with "M") which caused cancer in lab rats when fed to them in massive quanties over a long time. Like you would have to eat several pounds a day of it for a year - or something like that! I don't miss Diazinon, because bifen does as well without polluting groundwater, but I admit that losing Orthene really hurt!

Jack

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...phate-ext.html

Good memory. According to the pub above, the degradate of the aliphatic organophosphate acephate is methamidophos.

JackE · January 19, 2011

Thanks Mr Reilly! I can remember something I read 20 years ago, but can't find my wallet in the morning.LOL I think that one starts with "A".

That link is 1995 - we were still using it then. It was banned for food crops in - I'm guessing, but maybe 5 or 6 yrs ago. Some local retailers were telling people that the Surrender Fire Ant Killer was the same as Orthene and that they could use it the same way! Hopefully, they've been re-educated by now. I think they still use it on cotton - and probably corn grown for ethanol. It was a great pesticide - the only thing for aphids - but that's all history now.

Jack

David Marek · January 20, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackE

I know as a fact that it's legally used in Mexico on vegetables shipped to the US

Which makes me wonder why I eat store bought imported (from ANY other country) produce over the winter.

Sorry if I had gotten off topic, I have been watching your posts because over the winter I brew up ideas of doing a smaller scale version of what you guys do. So far I am experimenting and really need to refine my methods. I live in a well- off area, yet the shelves at the local food pantry have been rather low recently. And aside from that, nobody should have to eat canned vegetables during the summer because they cannot afford or do not have access to fresh produce.

For many people around here the Harvest For All program brings farmers and non farmers together to make monetary and in- kind food donations.

So, to Jonathan, Jack, and Earl (and all the Pay it Forward folks...), thanks for sharing your insight.

David Marek · January 20, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackE

"First Fruits" - great name for your project

Ditto. Like the name.

JackE · January 20, 2011

No problem in getting-off topic, David. I'm the one who wandered astray. I am the world's worst about doing that and it upsets some people, but I feel that it's always easy to get back on topic if someone has something relevant to add.

Anything that comes from the store or restaurant -or most home gardens for that matter - is going to have trace chemical residues. And that includes canned and frozen prepared foods as well, because they all contain corn and/or soybeans.

We have by far the most productive agricultural system in the world. We have eliminated hunger (real hunger at least -not cokes and potato chips) with huge surpluses of cheap, nutritious food. But everything has a downside. Progress always carries a compromise of some sort.

The ingestion of tiny amounts of possible carcinogens couldn't be too bad because life expectancy keeps going up and up. Personally, I'd rather make that compromise than go back to plowing with a mule and trying to raise a corn crop without chemical fertilizers. But that's a personal choice we all have in this great country - if one can afford it, he can eat 100% organic. The products are available for a price - but don't go to Red Lobster anymore - or even grandma's house for Thanksgiving! You may not get cancer, but you'll die from boredom. LOL

Jack

January 19, 2011	#19
JackE Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Woodville, Texas Posts: 520	Hi David -- I haven't used most of the chems on the list except Conserve and Talstar. Our thrip problems - with the exception of the onion thrip - have not been the result of direct damage from the thrips themselves but rather as vectors of diseases - the Western Flower Thrip in particular, which I addressed earlier. My "War Against Flowers" has paid-off - but I still have bills from the divorce lawyer--- just kidding, 42 years of marriage. LOL Luckily, I have a cooperative neighbor - his pasture is upwind and was loaded with host weeds. My biggest worry was killing his bahia grass, but I pulled it off with a selective broadleaf herbicide - and rotated the cows to another pasture. The price is really something on a lot of these products all right - that herbicide, for example was $192/quart (which goes a long way though). I want to get some Sandea (halosulfuron methyl), which kills purple nut sedge and goes over-the top-on cucurbits - $400+ for a 10 oz bottle (but you only use 0.5 oz/acre), but I guess I'll wait for the generic :-). We used to use Talstar (7.9% bifenthrin) which is on your list, to control the leafcutter ants (Atta texana), an incredibly destructive insect locally called "town ants." The subterranean colonies are enormous, they'll travel for hundreds of yards, work only at night and can devastate a whole field of young okra quickly. The only way to kill them is to flood the colony with gasoline (or other aromatic hyrocarbon), methyl bromide gas (now illegal) or insecticide. The chemical or gas is pumped or poured down their access hole(s). Talstar isn't labelled for crops - there's a binder in the inerts to slow breakdown and provide residual effect - so we now use Brigade, which is a stronger concentration (26% bifen), labelled for many crops, for the ants as well. It takes about 5 gals of strong mix to temporarily slow-down a single hill -a hundred gallons+ for a large colony, which can cover a half-acre or more (but I haven't seen a colony like that since I was a kid.) They don't eat the leaves, but use them to grow a fungis which they do eat. They are, thankfully, very selective. Their natural forage is youpon brush, but they really love many ornamentals -hibiscus and gardenia in particular. They will strip a huge shrub down to bare limbs in a couple hours - years ago, before A/C, we could sometimes actually hear them working outside, stripping and chopping-up leaves. I guess they have a place in the ecosystem - but so do I! :-) Jack Last edited by JackE; January 19, 2011 at 08:04 AM.

January 19, 2011	#20
JackE Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Woodville, Texas Posts: 520	David -- I just looked at your list again and noticed another one we use - Orthene(acephate 75). You must be in the ornamental greenhouse business? The EPA banned it from food crops in the US a few years ago (they still use it all over the world on food crops, including tomato transplants in Canada - who is at least as tough on chems as we are) but it's still available in the US for fire ant control - dusted on the mound or as a spray. Now sold under various names (Surrender, Hi Yield Ant Killer etc). It's without question the best fire ant killer there is, but we can't use it anywhere near the food crops, not even in pathways(its systemic), and we really miss it! It's not very toxic itself, but it breaks down into a fairly long-life residual chemical (can't remember the name - starts with "M") which caused cancer in lab rats when fed to them in massive quanties over a long time. Like you would have to eat several pounds a day of it for a year - or something like that! I don't miss Diazinon, because bifen does as well without polluting groundwater, but I admit that losing Orthene really hurt! I know as a fact that it's legally used in Mexico on vegetables shipped to the US (despite random - VERY random - testing - and even then the offending grower just ships under another name after being banned). But American growers can't use it. It's unfair to let the mexican produce in without being tested. That's the sort of thing, though, that has opened-up new opportunities for organic growers. If I had to make a living in the produce business today, as a small grower, I would grow organically and sell retail-direct to a suburban market. That's where the bucks are now! My friend in Houston gets $5/# for tomatoes!!! He earns every penny though :-). Jack Last edited by JackE; January 19, 2011 at 10:10 AM.

January 19, 2011	#22
JackE Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Woodville, Texas Posts: 520	Do y'all put a donation can out, Earl? We do. How many growers in First Fruits? Nice-looking website. We have a page on Facebook (FB search: Gardeners for Jesus). We bought a website from Yahoo, but didn't have anyone who knew how to develop it, so we dropped it. Jack Last edited by JackE; January 19, 2011 at 10:38 AM.

January 19, 2011	#26
JackE Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Woodville, Texas Posts: 520	Thanks Mr Reilly! I can remember something I read 20 years ago, but can't find my wallet in the morning.LOL I think that one starts with "A". That link is 1995 - we were still using it then. It was banned for food crops in - I'm guessing, but maybe 5 or 6 yrs ago. Some local retailers were telling people that the Surrender Fire Ant Killer was the same as Orthene and that they could use it the same way! Hopefully, they've been re-educated by now. I think they still use it on cotton - and probably corn grown for ethanol. It was a great pesticide - the only thing for aphids - but that's all history now. Jack Last edited by JackE; January 19, 2011 at 02:19 PM. Reason: AY

January 20, 2011	#29
JackE Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Woodville, Texas Posts: 520	No problem in getting-off topic, David. I'm the one who wandered astray. I am the world's worst about doing that and it upsets some people, but I feel that it's always easy to get back on topic if someone has something relevant to add. Anything that comes from the store or restaurant -or most home gardens for that matter - is going to have trace chemical residues. And that includes canned and frozen prepared foods as well, because they all contain corn and/or soybeans. We have by far the most productive agricultural system in the world. We have eliminated hunger (real hunger at least -not cokes and potato chips) with huge surpluses of cheap, nutritious food. But everything has a downside. Progress always carries a compromise of some sort. The ingestion of tiny amounts of possible carcinogens couldn't be too bad because life expectancy keeps going up and up. Personally, I'd rather make that compromise than go back to plowing with a mule and trying to raise a corn crop without chemical fertilizers. But that's a personal choice we all have in this great country - if one can afford it, he can eat 100% organic. The products are available for a price - but don't go to Red Lobster anymore - or even grandma's house for Thanksgiving! You may not get cancer, but you'll die from boredom. LOL Jack Last edited by JackE; January 20, 2011 at 04:29 AM.

January 18, 2011	#16
OneoftheEarls Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Up North Posts: 660	I too work at a food bank and operate the local community garden for fresh food.