Best grafted tomato varieties? - Page 17

aclum · March 12, 2013

Hi,

Well, our glorious weather has continued and I planted out yesterday! I'm attaching some more close-up photos of the grafts that were in the "group photo" I posted a couple of days ago. Also a photo of 4 little grafts still in the second healing chamber.

Also a couple of overviews of my 3 tomato beds - one with the plastic covering on and one with the covering up. They all seem to have come through the transplanting with no problems (knock on wood!). One thing I "discovered" in sort of an "oh, duh" moment..... a bulb planter makes a perfect hole for the transplant in th 16 oz (or whatever) solo cups!! No root disturbance whatsoever (except for my gently untangling some roots at the bottom of the cup).

Then I have some photos of some Indian Stripe, Amazon Chocolate, and Mexico transplants along side their grafted siblings. I've since transplated the larger grafts for my Lucky Cross, KBX, Hillbilly, Gary'O Sena, and Santa Clara Canner but didn't bother with photos yet). Will be interesting to so some commparison photos as time goes on.

I think I need to take a nap now LOL!!!

Anne

livinonfaith · March 12, 2013

Wow, that's a lot of work!

I noticed that you have some KBX and Hillbilly grafts going. I am trying those two, as well. (Although one of my KBX grafts has already bitten the dust!)

I only had one KBX tomato survive last year. That one tomato was my most tasty one all year. That tomato is the largest reason I'm trying the grafting.

It's so frustrating when you try a new variety and you only get one or two of them before the plant dies.

Stvrob · March 12, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by b54red

My wife lets me have the porch and greenhouse for my hobby but she would definitely draw the line with the dinning room table. If she didn't I would probably manage to make as big a mess in the dinning room as I have on the porch.

I should take a pic of my dining room table for you to show your wife..I have the chandelier lowered almost to the table top. Soil everywhere, tools boxes of seeds etc. if we had company show up now my wife would go ballistic.

Stvrob · March 12, 2013

Anne, I really like your garden setup! That looks great!

b54red · March 13, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by livinonfaith

Wow, that's a lot of work!

I noticed that you have some KBX and Hillbilly grafts going. I am trying those two, as well. (Although one of my KBX grafts has already bitten the dust!)

I only had one KBX tomato survive last year. That one tomato was my most tasty one all year. That tomato is the largest reason I'm trying the grafting.

It's so frustrating when you try a new variety and you only get one or two of them before the plant dies.

I have that problem with most varieties due to the fusarium I have in my garden. Actually KBX does better than some others. I usually get 5 or 6 off before it dies. I to am grafting it hoping to have better production from one of my favorite tomatoes. So far I haven't had any luck with the KBX grafts either. Maybe on the next batch.

I put most of my newer grafts out in the sun again since the wind isn't blowing quite so hard today. I'm going to have to bring everything back in tonight since it is predicted to hit 31 or 32 tonight and get into the mid 30s again tomorrow night. Looks like it will be Friday or Saturday before I finally get any tomatoes into the garden.

Bill

z_willus_d · March 13, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by livinonfaith

Wow, that's a lot of work!

I noticed that you have some KBX and Hillbilly grafts going. I am trying those two, as well. (Although one of my KBX grafts has already bitten the dust!)

I only had one KBX tomato survive last year. That one tomato was my most tasty one all year. That tomato is the largest reason I'm trying the grafting.

It's so frustrating when you try a new variety and you only get one or two of them before the plant dies.

KBX was the tomato plant I most wanted to graft as well. To date, I've attempted 5 and all have failed. Last night I tried another, and I'll keep trying until I have the 2 or 3 plants that I wanted. KBX was the best tasting tomato from my garden last year -- superb on a sandwich.
-naysen

aclum · March 13, 2013

Stvrob,

Thanks for the compliments on the garden set up. It's gradually evolved over the years and this season I'll be trying the drop line technique for trellising. (After it's warm enough to remove the plastic - we have 36 prediced for March 22!!).

I've been slowly working on the garden since we moved here in the fall of 07 (was all lawn in that area) - with about 2 years out due to health issues. It's finally all coming together more or less the way I envisioned it. Since I've pretty much been wheelchair bound for the past couple of years (although I can stand for short periods), it's all designed to be wheelchair friendly.

Livingonfaith,

I grew Kellogg's Breakfast when I lived in San Jose and loved it. Didn't do a thing here in Merced so I switched to KBX which was also a disappointment for me. After reading your comments I went out to check and realized that I just had the KBX and Hillbilly grafted to Katana (a very disease resistant semi-determinate with a continuous yield). Thinking back on past problems I had with KBX - vigorous plant with not much fruit, I decided I should have grafted it to Grandeur (the other main rootstock I've been using). If you read the text on grafting on Johnny's website (look under the growing info for any of the rootstocks they offer), you'll see how they talk about matching up generative vs vegetative varieties. From the description they give, KBX really does seem to be overly vegetative (so should be balanced with generative rootstock). One of the descriptions of the generative plants is that they have short internodes. Grandeur does have the short internodes, is early, vigorous, resistant to many diseases and, important to me, resistant to heat and cracking. (You can read the full descriptions on the Kitazawa Seed website). My understanding of all this is really pretty vague at this point, so take what I say here with a grain of salt!

Anyway, after reading your post and thinking things over, I went out and moved my opalka (that I'd given double space to) to my 4th tomato bed (currently half occupied by fava beans), moved the Hillbilly down a couple of spaces and made room for 2 new plants. This morning I grafted both a hillbilly and a kbx to grandeur rootstocks. Hopefully they'll take!!

To whoever asked about the hearts, I've got Prue (sort of a heart), Wes, and Wolford Wonder all grafted on the Grandeur which is supposedly a vigorous producer with large leaves. Maybe it'll made a difference, we'll see....

Anne

z_willus_d · March 13, 2013

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of a a root-stock's internodal properties passing on to the scion. I can see how the root stock might provide more vigor, more nutrient/water/whatever uptake, systemic disease resistance... all that makes sense. But how can it directly pass on genetic properties like fruit cluster density, flowering behavior, and so forth? I'm more asking a question here than making a statement (if not of my general ignorance here).
-naysen

aclum · March 13, 2013

Hi Naysen,

Yep - me too LOL! But check out the second section of the link on choosing rootstock. Maybe I'm misinterpreting things ......

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/Assets/In...toGrafting.pdf

BTW, I've been enjoying your updates. Your pizza sounded yummy! Good luck with your grafts!

Anne

aclum · March 13, 2013

Hi,

Looking for more info on rootstock choice vs scion vigor, I "rediscovered" this interesting link:

http://cals.arizona.edu/grafting/how...ato_rootstocks

Besides mentioning how you don't necessarily want a really vigorous rootstock for a really vigorous scion, it mentions how some grafts are incompatable.

I think it was livingonfaith who had asked if any grafts seemed to work better than others. I haven't really noted any particular differences myself (although I certainly have had enough failures!!) I'd recalled the info in this article but had forgotten where I read it. Apparently if the scion and rootstock share certain disease resistances they can be incompatable and grafting can result in the sudden death of the scion. Interesting.

FWIW,
Anne

JamesL · March 13, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

how can it directly pass on genetic properties like fruit cluster density, flowering behavior, and so forth?
-naysen

Naysen,
I think the generally accepted answer is that it can't.
This article is interesting in what does get exchanged between the two.
These results show that contrary to popular belief, grafted plants aren’t genetically distinct. As their tissues combine, so too do they swap genes with one another. Judging by the number of shoots that Stegemann and Bock produced, it’s a common event, but also a local one. The plants don’t exchange any genes over long distances.
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...nts-trade-gen/

Anne,
I thought that Arizona article was interesting as well. The only difficulty I had with it was the age of the data. I wondered why there wasn't more recent experimentation along those lines?

More reading for you - I found this to be an interesting thesis paper.
Cherokee Purple (and others) as both a scion and as a rootstock.
"The best rootstock was ‘Maxifort’ which produced the biggest, heaviest fruits of the best quality. ‘Cherokee Purple’ as a scion produced the largest and heaviest fruits, while ‘Crista’ produced the highest quality fruits. ‘Mister Stripey’ was the most prolific in terms of number of fruits per plant."
http://digitalcommons.wku.edu/theses/138/
http://digitalcommons.wku.edu/cgi/vi...context=theses

aclum · March 13, 2013

Hi Again,

I guess I nearly to clarify a bit.....

When I mentioned the longer nodal distance I was refering to this a one way to possibly identify a plant that was inherently generative in nature (to match up with an inherently vegetative - as I suspect KBX is based on my experience of huge plants with sparse - if any - fruit). I've never grown Grandeur or Katana before and I can't really spot the other identifying factors on my still small plants (relative top growth, stem shape, etc.).

I realize that growing conditions can be altered to "steer" plants in one direction or another, but that certain varieties tend to be one way or another from the start.

I'm growing a ungrafted KBX, a KBX grafted on Katana, and (if it takes) a KBX grafted on Grandeur, so I can see what difference it all makes (if any).

Anne

JamesL · March 14, 2013

Anne,
Your KBX test looks interesting.
You got me thinking about generative vs vegetative varieties and identification after your follow up post. I had not really keyed on that as a factor in plant selection. Balancing and steering plants was not something I had considered either.
Both of these articles are interesting in that regard.
http://www.crophouse.co.nz/files/Gr_...ive_-_view.pdf
http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/8077/4

aclum · March 14, 2013

Hi James,

Thanks for posting those links for everyone. Crop house has several very interesting articles on the topic as well as other tomato related subjects.

http://www.crophouse.co.nz/crop-mana...lant-steering/

I think we're coming across alot of the same websites in our research <g>. BTW, came across something in my searches, sort of off topic but relating to getting more production. It's probably old news to most people, but new to me. That is, before the plant leader stops putting out a decent amount of tomatoes (due to "age issues" or running out of steam), start letting a new sucker grow to form a second leader for a fresh new crop. I was planning on a single leader for my trellising, but think I'll put up two lines per plant and start growing a second leader about halfway through the season.

Anne

JamesL · March 14, 2013

Anne,
Yes, we are clearly running some of the same searches. The results are pretty narrow on some of these topics aren't they?
Looks like I am 16 for 20 with germination on the first batch of Maxifort. A couple are looking a little suspect though so that could number could drop. I started 10 more MF, and 10 each of Cherokee P, Vorlon, and Stump of the World a few days ago. I believe I will start more MF at least on Saturday.

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March 12, 2013	#242
livinonfaith Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Fuquay-Varina, North Carolina Posts: 1,332	Wow, that's a lot of work! I noticed that you have some KBX and Hillbilly grafts going. I am trying those two, as well. (Although one of my KBX grafts has already bitten the dust!) I only had one KBX tomato survive last year. That one tomato was my most tasty one all year. That tomato is the largest reason I'm trying the grafting. It's so frustrating when you try a new variety and you only get one or two of them before the plant dies.

March 12, 2013	#244
Stvrob Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,413	Anne, I really like your garden setup! That looks great!

March 13, 2013	#247
aclum Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Merced, CA Posts: 832	Stvrob, Thanks for the compliments on the garden set up. It's gradually evolved over the years and this season I'll be trying the drop line technique for trellising. (After it's warm enough to remove the plastic - we have 36 prediced for March 22!!). I've been slowly working on the garden since we moved here in the fall of 07 (was all lawn in that area) - with about 2 years out due to health issues. It's finally all coming together more or less the way I envisioned it. Since I've pretty much been wheelchair bound for the past couple of years (although I can stand for short periods), it's all designed to be wheelchair friendly. Livingonfaith, I grew Kellogg's Breakfast when I lived in San Jose and loved it. Didn't do a thing here in Merced so I switched to KBX which was also a disappointment for me. After reading your comments I went out to check and realized that I just had the KBX and Hillbilly grafted to Katana (a very disease resistant semi-determinate with a continuous yield). Thinking back on past problems I had with KBX - vigorous plant with not much fruit, I decided I should have grafted it to Grandeur (the other main rootstock I've been using). If you read the text on grafting on Johnny's website (look under the growing info for any of the rootstocks they offer), you'll see how they talk about matching up generative vs vegetative varieties. From the description they give, KBX really does seem to be overly vegetative (so should be balanced with generative rootstock). One of the descriptions of the generative plants is that they have short internodes. Grandeur does have the short internodes, is early, vigorous, resistant to many diseases and, important to me, resistant to heat and cracking. (You can read the full descriptions on the Kitazawa Seed website). My understanding of all this is really pretty vague at this point, so take what I say here with a grain of salt! Anyway, after reading your post and thinking things over, I went out and moved my opalka (that I'd given double space to) to my 4th tomato bed (currently half occupied by fava beans), moved the Hillbilly down a couple of spaces and made room for 2 new plants. This morning I grafted both a hillbilly and a kbx to grandeur rootstocks. Hopefully they'll take!! To whoever asked about the hearts, I've got Prue (sort of a heart), Wes, and Wolford Wonder all grafted on the Grandeur which is supposedly a vigorous producer with large leaves. Maybe it'll made a difference, we'll see.... Anne

March 13, 2013	#248
z_willus_d Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Eastern Suburb of Sacramento, CA Posts: 1,313	I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of a a root-stock's internodal properties passing on to the scion. I can see how the root stock might provide more vigor, more nutrient/water/whatever uptake, systemic disease resistance... all that makes sense. But how can it directly pass on genetic properties like fruit cluster density, flowering behavior, and so forth? I'm more asking a question here than making a statement (if not of my general ignorance here). -naysen

March 13, 2013	#249
aclum Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Merced, CA Posts: 832	Hi Naysen, Yep - me too LOL! But check out the second section of the link on choosing rootstock. Maybe I'm misinterpreting things ...... http://www.johnnyseeds.com/Assets/In...toGrafting.pdf BTW, I've been enjoying your updates. Your pizza sounded yummy! Good luck with your grafts! Anne

March 13, 2013	#250
aclum Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Merced, CA Posts: 832	Hi, Looking for more info on rootstock choice vs scion vigor, I "rediscovered" this interesting link: http://cals.arizona.edu/grafting/how...ato_rootstocks Besides mentioning how you don't necessarily want a really vigorous rootstock for a really vigorous scion, it mentions how some grafts are incompatable. I think it was livingonfaith who had asked if any grafts seemed to work better than others. I haven't really noted any particular differences myself (although I certainly have had enough failures!!) I'd recalled the info in this article but had forgotten where I read it. Apparently if the scion and rootstock share certain disease resistances they can be incompatable and grafting can result in the sudden death of the scion. Interesting. FWIW, Anne

March 13, 2013	#252
aclum Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Merced, CA Posts: 832	Hi Again, I guess I nearly to clarify a bit..... When I mentioned the longer nodal distance I was refering to this a one way to possibly identify a plant that was inherently generative in nature (to match up with an inherently vegetative - as I suspect KBX is based on my experience of huge plants with sparse - if any - fruit). I've never grown Grandeur or Katana before and I can't really spot the other identifying factors on my still small plants (relative top growth, stem shape, etc.). I realize that growing conditions can be altered to "steer" plants in one direction or another, but that certain varieties tend to be one way or another from the start. I'm growing a ungrafted KBX, a KBX grafted on Katana, and (if it takes) a KBX grafted on Grandeur, so I can see what difference it all makes (if any). Anne

March 14, 2013	#253
JamesL Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 1,992	Anne, Your KBX test looks interesting. You got me thinking about generative vs vegetative varieties and identification after your follow up post. I had not really keyed on that as a factor in plant selection. Balancing and steering plants was not something I had considered either. Both of these articles are interesting in that regard. http://www.crophouse.co.nz/files/Gr_...ive_-_view.pdf http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/8077/4

March 14, 2013	#254
aclum Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Merced, CA Posts: 832	Hi James, Thanks for posting those links for everyone. Crop house has several very interesting articles on the topic as well as other tomato related subjects. http://www.crophouse.co.nz/crop-mana...lant-steering/ I think we're coming across alot of the same websites in our research <g>. BTW, came across something in my searches, sort of off topic but relating to getting more production. It's probably old news to most people, but new to me. That is, before the plant leader stops putting out a decent amount of tomatoes (due to "age issues" or running out of steam), start letting a new sucker grow to form a second leader for a fresh new crop. I was planning on a single leader for my trellising, but think I'll put up two lines per plant and start growing a second leader about halfway through the season. Anne

March 14, 2013	#255
JamesL Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 1,992	Anne, Yes, we are clearly running some of the same searches. The results are pretty narrow on some of these topics aren't they? Looks like I am 16 for 20 with germination on the first batch of Maxifort. A couple are looking a little suspect though so that could number could drop. I started 10 more MF, and 10 each of Cherokee P, Vorlon, and Stump of the World a few days ago. I believe I will start more MF at least on Saturday.