Dead Plant Seed Viability

[Salsacharley]

I have a Sugar Drop (J&L Gardens) cherry tomato plant that was killed by spider mites back in September with fruit forming in trusses. I left the plant in place all this time, but last week I decided to see if the seed in the fruits was viable. On Nov 9 I harvested seeds and commenced the cleaning process on them.

On Nov 10 I decided to see if the seed was viable immediately, so I harvested some more and sowed them in MG potting soil in a 2" peat pot. Today is Nov 16 and I have 100% germination of those seeds...that's 6 days from seed to sprouts.

This indicates to me that seed cleaning isn't necessary for fast germination, and also that the condition of the fruit isn't that important for viability. One significant issue that isn't demonstrated yet is how good the plants and fruit would be from such seeds as the plants develop. I'm not going to be finding out this winter. I just wanted to see if the seeds were viable. Any other thoughts/facts are welcome.

Here is a picture of the plant and fruit, and a picture of the sprouts as of today.

[kurt]

I think that is what the whole fruit/ vegetable plant life/cycle is all about.Plant falls over covered in snow.spring warmth, germination.Birds travel with the seeds,animal eat and drop etc.I also do not clean the pulp from seeds,I beleive and have read that the pulps and peels protect,nourish,absorb water etc.Part of the landrace theory IMO.The seed companys must clean for culling,counting,sterilizing etc.I have germinated seeds right from fresh maters here in Fla.

[KarenO]

Fermenting or cleaning seed is important for long term storage. The germination of stored seed is improved by cleaning and seed which has been cleaned is easier to handle, doesn't stick together, can be counted out for packaging etc. Growing fresh seed is quite different. For sure, in nature nobody is purposefully cleaning seed although fermentation occurs naturally in rotting fruits and seed passed through the digestive system of animals has the gel containing enzymes removed. When fresh seed is planted, I would expect the germination to always be very close to 100%. The tricky thing is to get high germination from stored seed.
I have had decent germination from seed I have fermented and stored properly for 12 years. If planning to store seed, it is important to clean, dry, and store it properly.
Karen O

[Salsacharley]

I understand the purposes for cleaning seeds. I am just pointing out that there is very little difference in the time it takes for gel encased seeds to germinate as compared to cleaned seeds. I always thought that the time fermentation took while cleaning seeds was necessary
for the seed to be able to germinate.

I also was interested in how viable the seed from an afflicted plant was. It appears to me that the sprouts from seed from fruit from a dead plant are just as good as seeds selected from a beautiful healthy ripe plant.

[kurt]

There is documentation of some maladies that can be carried over to the seed coat and interior of seed.It has been discussed before here.Whether be it a fungus,bacteria or virus I do not know.Maybe someone here will chime it with the info.Rule of thumb for me if the plant had some crud,or if the garden had some no seed saving(which I hardly do anyway).Why roll the dice and infect the next crop?The malady might not telegraph itself untill plant is older.

[Fred Hempel]

Originally Posted by kurt

There is documentation of some maladies that can be carried over to the seed coat and interior of seed.It has been discussed before here.Whether be it a fungus,bacteria or virus I do not know.Maybe someone here will chime it with the info.Rule of thumb for me if the plant had some crud,or if the garden had some no seed saving(which I hardly do anyway).Why roll the dice and infect the next crop?The malady might not telegraph itself untill plant is older.

This is a good point. We save seed from diseased plants only when the seeds are irreplaceable. And then we use bleach and Tri-sodium phosphate (after normal fermentation) to try to minimize spread into the next generation.

[maf]

Hot water treatment is the only way to kill nasties within the seeds, rather than on the coat, a useful string to the bow to supplement bleach, fermentation etc. Mostly used for bacterial diseases such as bacterial canker.

50°C (122°F) for 25 minutes, and preheat the seeds in 100°F water. Easy to do small batches in a Thermos Flask and digital probe thermometers are cheap and accurate these days.

Cornell department of Plant Pathology: Managing Pathogens Inside Seed with Hot Water

[Fred Hempel]

Maf,

What is the expected mortality with a 50 deg C hot water treatment? Is there any reduction in expected seed longevity?

I want to try this in the rare case where I have irreplaceable material that is potentially TMV infected.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fred Hempel

Maf,

What is the expected mortality with a 50 deg C hot water treatment? Is there any reduction in expected seed longevity?

I want to try this in the rare case where I have irreplaceable material that is potentially TMV infected.

Fred, I don't know if you are referring to tomatoes or squash or whatever, but I've linked to these two Cornell places before about hot water treatment and in the second one it notes that tomato seed viability can be and I've seen the same elsewhere, significantly reduced.

http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.corne...l_BactSeed.htm

I guess the second one didn't transfer but in the one above just click on the link at the top which takes you to that one.

Info is given for many kinds of crops such as tomatoes, squash, peppers and on and on and the second link suggests having a commercial source do the hot water treatments since it's one of those processes that some have referred to as////don't try this at home.

I've never done it and I don't know if anyone here has done it.

Hope that helps'

Carolyn

[BigVanVader]

I actually started some pink Brandywine seeds I got from Clemson 8 years ago and had forgotten about till I was moving and found them in a closet. I decided to test germination assuming most were not viable. To my surprise I had around 90% germination which is what was listed on the package. Not only that but most of them were up within 5 days, which was faster than any of my tomato seeds last year. The only difference was I used diatomaceous earth as my medium.

[maf]

Originally Posted by Fred Hempel

Maf,

What is the expected mortality with a 50 deg C hot water treatment? Is there any reduction in expected seed longevity?

I want to try this in the rare case where I have irreplaceable material that is potentially TMV infected.

I haven't noted any mortality in healthy seeds that were hot water treated. I am talking about seeds that were saved and heat treated 2 or 3 years ago and still give close to 100% germination. I can't comment on whether it would affect the germination rate at 10 or 20 years. I think immature or weak seeds might not like it so much, but they don't last as long anyway.

I think a lot of study went into finding the optimal temp and time to kill pathogens without damaging seeds, and the 25 mins at 50°C is widely agreed at many respected institutions. Obviously if you decide to go over 50°C, or do so accidentally, then you will get fatalities.

[AlittleSalt]

One of my experiments last year (2013) was to pick up fallen severely blemished tomatoes and toss them about in full sun areas in the garden instead of composting all of them. This year, I was rewarded with many volunteer tomato plants. Half of those plants produced better than the transplants I bought. To my surprise, we had volunteers growing in full shade also. They produced well.

I agree with you - I think your seeds will produce well.

[Worth1]

50 degrees Celsius = 122 degrees Fahrenheit.
Worth

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...80642063,d.eXY

[Salsacharley]

Update -

Back on Nov 16 I got sprouts from my dead plant exercise and I kept one going. On Dec 11, I transplanted it from the 4" Jiffy pot to a 6" pot. I have it under 4 T-5 Sunblasters and it soon grew into the lights. I decided to lay it down and grow it sideways since I am not going to build a grow chamber for it. (I did that last year with a Tommy Toe and it overran my whole room). Today I transplanted it again into my new contraption...a 4 gal reusable cloth shopping bag with a slit down the side. I put about 4" of potting soil in the bottom of the bag and then slit the side of the bag vertically down to the potting soil. I then laid the Sugar Drop root ball into the bag through the slit. I then used my incredible sewing skills to sew the bag back together. Then I filled the bag with potting soil to within about 6" of the top. I stuck the whole thing back under the lights. This is being kept on one of the 2 ' x 4' shelves of my seedling germinating and growing shelves.

I now plan to let it grow and get some Sugar Drop fruits around February. I'll start topping it when it grows to the end of my light setup, and I'll prune as needed to keep the growth from overtaking the lights.

[FLRedHeart]

Thats a very pretty plant at this time of year!

I'm looking at the original post and had a question. I grew seeds from fresh tomatoes, but bleached them first a few months ago. They took about two extra days to germinate compared to dried saved seeds (around 6 vs. arounf 4 days for the type of tomato), but it was a one shot deal, so I don't know if that was a fluke or normal, and the germination was still 100%.

What I wanted to ask is whether the tomatoes had already gone soft that you used to harvest these seeds. That's because you didn't get the 2 day delay I thought might be typical.