Propagating Prime-Jan Blackberries

Dutch · February 15, 2015

I planted 6 Apache and 6 Prime Jan Blackberry plants in 2013. 4 of the Apache made it through the winter of 2013/2014, but have been slow to grow and have not produced any fruit. All 6 of the Prime-Jan made it through the previous winter and have grown over four times their original size this past summer, plus produced very sweet large berries.
I would like to propagate the Prime-Jan and use on a property line as a barrier for about 300 feet. Do the Prime-Jan blackberry plants propagate well? And if so, what are the best techniques to use to do this on a large scale?
Thanks in advance.
Dutch

Worth1 · February 15, 2015

Dutch tip layering, cuttings and suckering is the preferred ways to do this.
Tip layering is where you take the tip of the cane and bury it in the ground in the fall or end of summer and let it take root over the winter.
You will then cut the cane about a foot above the ground and dig up the now new plant and move it to where you want.

Suckering is just that you dig up unwanted suckers and replant them.
And then there is taking cuttings and re rooting them.
Another method is called air layering where you can put a cloth with soil in it on the cane and let it take root.

There are many sites explaining this process on line.

Worth

Dutch · February 15, 2015

Thanks for your reply Worth, I'll check those techniques out. I use the cane cuttings rooting technique to propagate my Goji berries. Good info, thanks again!
Dutch

Robert Hays · February 15, 2015

Dutch I would not propagate those berries. They are still under patent, which means that if you get caught having more plants in large number than you have receipts for you can be fined up to 50k first offense and 5 years in jail. The best thing would be to buy more plants. Phillip Pense at Pense nursery will sell you the plants for about 2.00 per plant shipping included. If you mention my name as a contact that recommended you call him he will sell you the plants at the price I buy them for. I have given him over 40k plants sales in last 3 years so I get them at huge savings as does anyone who mentions my name. The University of Arkansas will prosecute anyone not paying royalties for plants they either sale or propagate. And it costs about 15k to get propagators license to propagate the plants then you have to send a certain amount of money every year minimum for royalty fees.

Worth1 · February 15, 2015

I'm scared to death.

Blackberries propagate themselves by way of suckers.

Worth

Dutch · February 15, 2015

The names on the labels on the blackberry plants containers were blacked out with a magic marker and there were layers of sale stickers over them. It was a lot of work getting down to the original label to see what was on them. I bought a total of 18 "blackberry" plants but some might not be blackberries because the fruit never turn black, only a deep red. I was never able to read all the original labels. I would have never bought them had I known they were GMO blackberries. Something is very wrong here and I don't like it!
Dutch

Robert Hays · February 16, 2015

True that blackberries will sucker, but when you cut the roots that makes a new plant. The people who have patent do not get paid for. The same with tip layering, and root cuttings. It takes years to develop a new variety on any plant and actually 100's of thousands of dollars to get it to market. That is why the patent owners will go after anyone they find out are propagating plants under patent. I have been working for over 15 years on a new variety of muscadine, When I get it finished and have a patent on it you better believe if I hear of someone propagating my plants and I don't get my royalties from it they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

barefootgardener · February 16, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Hays

True that blackberries will sucker, but when you cut the roots that makes a new plant. The people who have patent do not get paid for. The same with tip layering, and root cuttings. It takes years to develop a new variety on any plant and actually 100's of thousands of dollars to get it to market. That is why the patent owners will go after anyone they find out are propagating plants under patent. I have been working for over 15 years on a new variety of muscadine, When I get it finished and have a patent on it you better believe if I hear of someone propagating my plants and I don't get my royalties from it they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I could understand if someone were to propogate the patented plants and grow them to sell , to make a profit for themselves. But for a typical homegardener who just wants to dig up the suckers and divide the plants that spread after a number of years, you are saying they could be prosecuted, am I understanding this correctly?

Worth1 · February 16, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by barefootgardener

I could understand if someone were to propogate the patented plants and grow them to sell , to make a profit for themselves. But for a typical homegardener who just wants to dig up the suckers and divide the plants that spread after a number of years, you are saying they could be prosecuted, am I understanding this correctly?

Yep thats pretty much what he said including him if he catches you me or anyone else on this forum.

Worth

drew51 · February 17, 2015

Yeah I won't buy any UA berries, well except the patent expired ones. No blackberry police here. But I do think one should respect the patent. I do I just don't respect UA! Oregon State University has developed cultivars and not patented them. Just let them out there. They encourage breeders to use them, no charge for using them for breeding. They did patent Columbia Star but still will let breeders use it for free.
Huge respect for them. An agricultural University is supposed to be about helping people grow crops better, obviously UA has different priorities.

None of these plants are GMO's!?? Not sure how that came up? A plant having a patent has nothing to do with how it was developed. I can say for sure that the UA blackberries are non-gmo.
I was thinking of using wild blackberries or the cultivar Nelson, or Darrow (no patents on these, too old) and Columbia Star to try and develop a super hardy blackberry that has the boysenberry/Marion berry raspberry-blackberry hybrid taste (Columbia Star does!). Nelson and Darrow are super hardy blackberry plants. If I could do it, which is highly doubtful, but fun to try you bet I would patent it! In a NY minute!
Yeah I researched Darrow and it was developed about 1940, and Nelson about 1906. If they ever did have patents they are long expired and now public domain. And as stated Oregon doesn't charge. Breeding blackberries though is rather difficult. I'm practicing with my plants now. The raspberry breeder Pete Tallman is helping me out with scarification, stratification and germination techniques.
I'm all for patents as it is incentive to develop new and better cultivars. But usually it costs more to develop than one get's back. Unless you really hit the jackpot and develop a plant everybody has to have.
To market a blackberry plant, my costs would be around 25K. My fee would be 20 cents per plant.
So you can see I would have to sell a lot of plants to break even. Pete told me he has never broken even on any plants he developed. If you could not patent them, i would not bother trying to make a better plant. I at least want the chance to earn money for my hard work. Otherwise why would I spend all that money? I like my fellow man, but I have my own family I'm responible for. I can't take on the world too, not without compensation.
I'm not sure how tomato breeders make money? I never really had an interest in doing it. I know it's a whole different thing. The reason blackberies cost so much is you need to run scientific field testing as no nursery will help you propagate without research to show it is even worth selling. Not to mention the costs of a patent!

greenthumbomaha · February 17, 2015

Hmm, interesting point, Drew. From my limited exposure to university research, patents belong to the school, not the individual. Why would a public school object to a person dividing a plant on their own property? Is that not the reason we support our local ag departments?

-Lisa

Robert Hays · February 17, 2015

Barefoot gardener, They can prosecute anyone whjo infringes on their patent. NOW, a home gardener that expands their plantings just a few plants would they prosecute? most likely not, but why take a chance? All you have to do is look at when the plants were introduced from the source and it is less than I think 15 years, it is probably still under patent and again why take a chance.

Robert Hays · February 17, 2015

Drew there is a new variety of blackberry from south Ms. USDA/ARS called the Sweetie Pie. It is the sweetest blackberry that is on market now, released last year for tissue culture. This spring will be out in limited numbers. I have had it on my farm for 2 years now doing tests and experiments with it so I have a head start on the plants it has all the characteristics of the UA variety of Oauchita, from size amount fruit produced ripening dates etc. It is an offspring of Oauchita and several other varieties even. But the sugar content is 12%.

drew51 · February 17, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Hays

Barefoot gardener, They can prosecute anyone who infringes on their patent. NOW, a home gardener that expands their plantings just a few plants would they prosecute? most likely not, but why take a chance? All you have to do is look at when the plants were introduced from the source and it is less than I think 15 years, it is probably still under patent and again why take a chance.

Well that is rather funny. I think the chances are better that monkeys will fly out of my butt.
That they would spend tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer fees to collect the $1.50 you owe them.
Patent infringement is a civil case, not criminal, so they would have to hire the investigators and lawyers.
I had a case where someone owed me 5K, I could not find a lawyer who would take it, because traditionally they take 1/3 of settlement, and 1/3 of 5K was not enough to be worth their time.
Worst case they would send you a cease and desist letter, and if you complied it would be over. it is not worth it to go after you. As far as fines they would first have to prove you violated civil law.
How would they even know? They would not know, nobody watches gardeners to see how they are propagating plants, you could have bought them from Lowes, this is extremely funny!
With that said I think one should respect patents, nobody though is going to come after you.

Dutch · February 17, 2015

I bought mine at Walmart. The receipt identified them as just Blackberries plants. I have no intention of breaking the law. I even leave the labels on my mattresses.
Dutch

February 15, 2015	#1
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Propagating Prime-Jan Blackberries I planted 6 Apache and 6 Prime Jan Blackberry plants in 2013. 4 of the Apache made it through the winter of 2013/2014, but have been slow to grow and have not produced any fruit. All 6 of the Prime-Jan made it through the previous winter and have grown over four times their original size this past summer, plus produced very sweet large berries. I would like to propagate the Prime-Jan and use on a property line as a barrier for about 300 feet. Do the Prime-Jan blackberry plants propagate well? And if so, what are the best techniques to use to do this on a large scale? Thanks in advance. Dutch __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries.

February 15, 2015	#3
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Thanks for your reply Worth, I'll check those techniques out. I use the cane cuttings rooting technique to propagate my Goji berries. Good info, thanks again! Dutch __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries.

February 15, 2015	#6
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	The names on the labels on the blackberry plants containers were blacked out with a magic marker and there were layers of sale stickers over them. It was a lot of work getting down to the original label to see what was on them. I bought a total of 18 "blackberry" plants but some might not be blackberries because the fruit never turn black, only a deep red. I was never able to read all the original labels. I would have never bought them had I known they were GMO blackberries. Something is very wrong here and I don't like it! Dutch __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries. Last edited by Dutch; February 16, 2015 at 01:45 PM. Reason: Clarification

February 17, 2015	#10
drew51 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Sterling Heights, MI Zone 6a/5b Posts: 1,302	Yeah I won't buy any UA berries, well except the patent expired ones. No blackberry police here. But I do think one should respect the patent. I do I just don't respect UA! Oregon State University has developed cultivars and not patented them. Just let them out there. They encourage breeders to use them, no charge for using them for breeding. They did patent Columbia Star but still will let breeders use it for free. Huge respect for them. An agricultural University is supposed to be about helping people grow crops better, obviously UA has different priorities. None of these plants are GMO's!?? Not sure how that came up? A plant having a patent has nothing to do with how it was developed. I can say for sure that the UA blackberries are non-gmo. I was thinking of using wild blackberries or the cultivar Nelson, or Darrow (no patents on these, too old) and Columbia Star to try and develop a super hardy blackberry that has the boysenberry/Marion berry raspberry-blackberry hybrid taste (Columbia Star does!). Nelson and Darrow are super hardy blackberry plants. If I could do it, which is highly doubtful, but fun to try you bet I would patent it! In a NY minute! Yeah I researched Darrow and it was developed about 1940, and Nelson about 1906. If they ever did have patents they are long expired and now public domain. And as stated Oregon doesn't charge. Breeding blackberries though is rather difficult. I'm practicing with my plants now. The raspberry breeder Pete Tallman is helping me out with scarification, stratification and germination techniques. I'm all for patents as it is incentive to develop new and better cultivars. But usually it costs more to develop than one get's back. Unless you really hit the jackpot and develop a plant everybody has to have. To market a blackberry plant, my costs would be around 25K. My fee would be 20 cents per plant. So you can see I would have to sell a lot of plants to break even. Pete told me he has never broken even on any plants he developed. If you could not patent them, i would not bother trying to make a better plant. I at least want the chance to earn money for my hard work. Otherwise why would I spend all that money? I like my fellow man, but I have my own family I'm responible for. I can't take on the world too, not without compensation. I'm not sure how tomato breeders make money? I never really had an interest in doing it. I know it's a whole different thing. The reason blackberies cost so much is you need to run scientific field testing as no nursery will help you propagate without research to show it is even worth selling. Not to mention the costs of a patent! Last edited by drew51; February 17, 2015 at 02:03 AM.

February 17, 2015	#15
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	I bought mine at Walmart. The receipt identified them as just Blackberries plants. I have no intention of breaking the law. I even leave the labels on my mattresses. Dutch __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries. Last edited by Dutch; February 17, 2015 at 09:21 AM. Reason: Added info

February 15, 2015	#2
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Dutch tip layering, cuttings and suckering is the preferred ways to do this. Tip layering is where you take the tip of the cane and bury it in the ground in the fall or end of summer and let it take root over the winter. You will then cut the cane about a foot above the ground and dig up the now new plant and move it to where you want. Suckering is just that you dig up unwanted suckers and replant them. And then there is taking cuttings and re rooting them. Another method is called air layering where you can put a cloth with soil in it on the cane and let it take root. There are many sites explaining this process on line. Worth

February 15, 2015	#4
Robert Hays Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Dumas Ms. Posts: 25	Dutch I would not propagate those berries. They are still under patent, which means that if you get caught having more plants in large number than you have receipts for you can be fined up to 50k first offense and 5 years in jail. The best thing would be to buy more plants. Phillip Pense at Pense nursery will sell you the plants for about 2.00 per plant shipping included. If you mention my name as a contact that recommended you call him he will sell you the plants at the price I buy them for. I have given him over 40k plants sales in last 3 years so I get them at huge savings as does anyone who mentions my name. The University of Arkansas will prosecute anyone not paying royalties for plants they either sale or propagate. And it costs about 15k to get propagators license to propagate the plants then you have to send a certain amount of money every year minimum for royalty fees.

February 15, 2015	#5
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	I'm scared to death. Blackberries propagate themselves by way of suckers. Worth

February 16, 2015	#7
Robert Hays Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Dumas Ms. Posts: 25	True that blackberries will sucker, but when you cut the roots that makes a new plant. The people who have patent do not get paid for. The same with tip layering, and root cuttings. It takes years to develop a new variety on any plant and actually 100's of thousands of dollars to get it to market. That is why the patent owners will go after anyone they find out are propagating plants under patent. I have been working for over 15 years on a new variety of muscadine, When I get it finished and have a patent on it you better believe if I hear of someone propagating my plants and I don't get my royalties from it they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

February 17, 2015	#11
greenthumbomaha Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Omaha Zone 5 Posts: 2,514	Hmm, interesting point, Drew. From my limited exposure to university research, patents belong to the school, not the individual. Why would a public school object to a person dividing a plant on their own property? Is that not the reason we support our local ag departments? -Lisa