When is a potato leaf not a Potato leaf ..Bloody Butcher ?

[BlackBear]

Hi all,

I am wondering if any of you know the variations of the Tomato leaf better than I ?


I can spot a normal classical potato leaf ....a mile away .

(Matina , Galinas, Kimberly, Shelicauski . visitation valley, Stupice etc etc.)

I can spot a Silvery fir type leaf

I can spot "angora "

I can spot Rugose (Classical )

and what is labeled "regular " leaf .


However I think there are some variations that make things a bit confusing some times ???

Are there leaf categories that are actually between the rugose/potato/regular classifications ?


I have a Bloody butcher that seems to start out quite serrated deep in the younger leaves then as they mature ...they look Potato ......

If I were to look at it quickly with out knowing it was bloody butcher ...I would say it was a regular leaf ..(or even part rugose ?) but as the plant is getting going it looks like to me not really potato like.


So when is a Potato leaf not a Potato leaf ? .......designation is decided on mature leaves ? when immature leaves look regular ????

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by BlackBear

Hi all,

I am wondering if any of you know the variations of the Tomato leaf better than I ?


I can spot a normal classical potato leaf ....a mile away .

(Matina , Galinas, Kimberly, Shelicauski . visitation valley, Stupice etc etc.)

I can spot a Silvery fir type leaf

I can spot "angora "

I can spot Rugose (Classical )

and what is labeled "regular " leaf .


However I think there are some variations that make things a bit confusing some times ???

Are there leaf categories that are actually between the rugose/potato/regular classifications ?


I have a Bloody butcher that seems to start out quite serrated deep in the younger leaves then as they mature ...they look Potato ......

If I were to look at it quickly with out knowing it was bloody butcher ...I would say it was a regular leaf ..(or even part rugose ?) but as the plant is getting going it looks like to me not really potato like.


So when is a Potato leaf not a Potato leaf ? .......designation is decided on mature leaves ? when immature leaves look regular ????

I no longer have the link to a german site where 5 different forms of PL were pictured and described, my link just went dead when I looked for it several years ago. The only one I remember was called mitten shape.

When starting seeds I never made the call on a new variety until the seedling was at least 4-5 inches tall, since, as you mentioned, the earliest leaves can look RL and as the plant matures only then can you tell if it's PL or remains RL.

Below is a FAQ from the original Garden Web, but since Houzz bought out GW not all pictures are shown but I think it gives a good idea of variations between PL and RL.

http://faq.gardenweb.com/discussions...-tomato-leaves

And yes, you'll see who participated in writing the above FAQ and you might recognize a user name or two.

And this is the Google search from which the above link came from so you might want to read those links that also address the same question.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...ato+leaf+types

Carolyn

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I no longer have the link to a german site where 5 different forms of PL were pictured and described, my link just went dead when I looked for it several years ago. The only one I remember was called mitten shape.

When starting seeds I never made the call on a new variety until the seedling was at least 4-5 inches tall, since, as you mentioned, the earliest leaves can look RL and as the plant matures only then can you tell if it's PL or remains RL.

Below is a FAQ from the original Garden Web, but since Houzz bought out GW not all pictures are shown but I think it gives a good idea of variations between PL and RL.

http://faq.gardenweb.com/discussions...-tomato-leaves

And yes, you'll see who participated in writing the above FAQ and you might recognize a user name or two.

And this is the Google search from which the above link came from so you might want to read those links that also address the same question.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...ato+leaf+types

Carolyn

Thanks so much Carolyn,

the links went into various other information ...

including variegated etc. (yes I grew that one too ...ha ha ha) .

for me it was just helpful knowing somebody has made distinction between 5 types of PL.

As there must be ones that are tricky to ID at the younger stages ....depending on the environmental conditions I am thinking they express recognizable PL shape much later sometimes ...

If anybody can find that German site "taxonomy " of the 5 PL forms /shapes

or similar info. paper or I would be interested to look at it ..........



I was thinking my plants had somehow started to destabilize the variety or had inadvertently hybridized etc.

I also noticed on a few sites varieties leaf types are listed as regular/rugose as different from rugose ? Rugose / potato regular /potato potato ......are they possibly trying to describe with the 3 main leaf shape terms (Potato/regular/ rugose) a world that has at least

5 PL leaf shape varieties ?

[MrsJustice]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I no longer have the link to a german site where 5 different forms of PL were pictured and described, my link just went dead when I looked for it several years ago. The only one I remember was called mitten shape.

When starting seeds I never made the call on a new variety until the seedling was at least 4-5 inches tall, since, as you mentioned, the earliest leaves can look RL and as the plant matures only then can you tell if it's PL or remains RL.

Below is a FAQ from the original Garden Web, but since Houzz bought out GW not all pictures are shown but I think it gives a good idea of variations between PL and RL.

http://faq.gardenweb.com/discussions...-tomato-leaves

And yes, you'll see who participated in writing the above FAQ and you might recognize a user name or two.


And this is the Google search from which the above link came from so you might want to read those links that also address the same question.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...ato+leaf+types

Carolyn

Hello Carolyn
It very good to see your reply's: Your Reply's warms everyone hearts. I sent your seeds I saved from your project to the Seed Saver Exchange. I feel like you and the Seed Saver Exchange has been my teachers over the Years. It was good to see them Advertise everywhere because they are our Parents. Well my Parents. If I would have when to visit the Seed Saver Exchange Farm years ago I would have realized and Identified the Native Americans wild tomatoes growing on my property "called an "Aunt Molly" with very unusual Leafs. Well I had a good time growing over 200 variety of Tomatoes trying to found the So called Wild Tomato, I just never thought it was a little tomatoes in side the small hush on that small bush. For 20 years I only had the description of a wild Native American Tomato still growing on my historical Property Farms. So I think many people should plan a trip to the Seed Saver Exchange Farms to see in person the different leafs growing of Tomatoes Varieties.

Yes I have some that look like a Mitten Shape but a Potato Leaf. That's good information to explain about the Mitten Leaf Potato Leaf.

What kind of Leaf description we will call the Aunt Molly"s Leaves or Leafs?

Farmer Joyce Beggs

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by BlackBear

Thanks so much Carolyn,

the links went into various other information ...

including variegated etc. (yes I grew that one too ...ha ha ha) .

for me it was just helpful knowing somebody has made distinction between 5 types of PL.

As there must be ones that are tricky to ID at the younger stages ....depending on the environmental conditions I am thinking they express recognizable PL shape much later sometimes ...

If anybody can find that German site "taxonomy " of the 5 PL forms /shapes

or similar info. paper or I would be interested to look at it ..........



I was thinking my plants had somehow started to destabilize the variety or had inadvertently hybridized etc.

I also noticed on a few sites varieties leaf types are listed as regular/rugose as different from rugose ? Rugose / potato regular /potato potato ......are they possibly trying to describe with the 3 main leaf shape terms (Potato/regular/ rugose) a world that has at least

5 PL leaf shape varieties ?

I just lost what I had already typed, so I'll try to remember what I had typed,

No, environmental conditions do not influence whether a variety starts out as RL with lower leaves and then the newer leaves are PL. It's all about genetics. Some PL varieties are PL from the time they germinate and the first set of TRUE leaves appears, while others do the conversion bit.

Rugose varieties are RL, it's just that the leaf surface is pleated. Off hand I know of no rugose variety that is PL, there may be but I have never heard of one or grown one,

In your last pararaph, no they are not trying to define 3 types of leaf shape and some of the word combos you typed don't exist.

Finally, no one will find that German link about PL shapes. I got it initially from someone else maybe 25 years ago, and there are MANY links I once had that have disappeared. Whether it's b'c the site hosting a link dropped it, or deletion of the software maintaining it, there's no way to know. And as I said, I have had MANY links go dead, so not at all unusual.

Hopefully I've amswered most of your questions,

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by MrsJustice

Hello Carolyn
It very good to see your reply's: Your Reply's warms everyone hearts. I sent your seeds I saved from your project to the Seed Saver Exchange. I feel like you and the Seed Saver Exchange has been my teachers over the Years. It was good to see them Advertise everywhere because they are our Parents. Well my Parents. If I would have when to visit the Seed Saver Exchange Farm years ago I would have realized and Identified the Native Americans wild tomatoes growing on my property "called an "Aunt Molly" with very unusual Leafs. Well I had a good time growing over 200 variety of Tomatoes trying to found the So called Wild Tomato, I just never thought it was a little tomatoes in side the small hush on that small bush. For 20 years I only had the description of a wild Native American Tomato still growing on my historical Property Farms. So I think many people should plan a trip to the Seed Saver Exchange Farms to see in person the different leafs growing of Tomatoes Varieties.

Yes I have some that look like a Mitten Shape but a Potato Leaf. That's good information to explain about the Mitten Leaf Potato Leaf.

What kind of Leaf description we will call the Aunt Molly"s Leaves or Leafs?

Farmer Joyce Beggs

Joyce, almost everything, except for the past several years that anyone has gotten seeds from my annual seed offers here are already in the SSE seed bank and if you are an SSE member you know that in the annual Yearbooks you'll also find them listed by those who are listed members and only available to other SSE members, whether listed members or not.

So I'm not sure why you sent saved seeds from ones you got from me in my seed offers directly to SSE.

Aunt Molly is not a wild tomato. It's a ground cherry in the genus Physalis, the same genus as Chinese Lanterns and many others. And one cannot compare leaf forms from anything in the Physalis genus with a true tomato in the genus Solanum.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...+ground+cherry

There are several different ground cherries, and to be honest, I don't like the taste of them at all.

But there are many many different true tomato varieties that are so called wild ones and lots are listed in the SSE yearbooks. Most of them from the US Gulf states and Mexico, as spread by Spanish missionaries. Also ones from the Galapgos Islands which makes sense since tomatoes originated in thehighlands of Chile and Peru and it's been thought that birds transferred seeds from South America to the Galapagos islands.

I donot suggest a trip to Decorah, IA where SSE is to see different leaf shapes of tomatoes for several reasons. First, there's been an almost complete turnover in staff there and I am not at all impressed with the new staff as to their knowledge of tomato varieties. Last Fall I called and wanted all of my listings in the yearbook to be deleted, and they were, but all that man really wanted to ask is if I would donate my seed collection to SSE and I never got back to him and never would I do that anyway,

I'm not the only one deleting listings, that I know. many of us long term SSE members do not like the direction that SSE is taking, and no, I'm not going to be specific here.

If I haven't asnwered your questions please just post in this thread and tell me what I left out.

Carolyn

[BlackBear]

I don't know if it is just my source of Bloody butcher 's or

that I just never noticed the leaf variations in the plant ....cause I was all about the Tomato......

My Single Plants ( different locations) now have full green fruit (Larger than "saladette' I would say ...which makes me suspicious)....The growing end of the plant vines have serrated sharp leaf shapes ...one would most certainly be forgiven for saying "Regular " shape looking . One can see that as the leaves mature the serrations and divisions smooth out and fill in .....but not totally ........Some real old / big ones look smoother ....But most are not the classical potato leaf with smooth symmetrical outline..........( Big old ones are Wobbly outline Potato leaf )

What is crazy is one branch of the same plant does have from the beginning small leaves that are symmetrical smooth classic potato leaf shape .

I really had to inspect closer to verify it all was the same plant and same main stem....all these leaf shapes are in fact on one plant .

really I don't care if it is mutated or Chimera or whatever .....

all I care is if it does produce edible fruit early and abundantly .

It just seems in this case to be a trickier leaf classification...

One might not just say "Potato leaf " if looked at

quickly in passing due to the variation of leaf shapes on one plant.


My Matina /Galinas/Shelicauski/Mrs. Maxwell/Stupice/Kimberly/ Visitation Valley etc. and other PL's do not do that here.

[MrsJustice]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Joyce, almost everything, except for the past several years that anyone has gotten seeds from my annual seed offers here are already in the SSE seed bank and if you are an SSE member you know that in the annual Yearbooks you'll also find them listed by those who are listed members and only available to other SSE members, whether listed members or not.

So I'm not sure why you sent saved seeds from ones you got from me in my seed offers directly to SSE.

Aunt Molly is not a wild tomato. It's a ground cherry in the genus Physalis, the same genus as Chinese Lanterns and many others. And one cannot compare leaf forms from anything in the Physalis genus with a true tomato in the genus Solanum.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...+ground+cherry

There are several different ground cherries, and to be honest, I don't like the taste of them at all.

But there are many many different true tomato varieties that are so called wild ones and lots are listed in the SSE yearbooks. Most of them from the US Gulf states and Mexico, as spread by Spanish missionaries. Also ones from the Galapgos Islands which makes sense since tomatoes originated in thehighlands of Chile and Peru and it's been thought that birds transferred seeds from South America to the Galapagos islands.

I donot suggest a trip to Decorah, IA where SSE is to see different leaf shapes of tomatoes for several reasons. First, there's been an almost complete turnover in staff there and I am not at all impressed with the new staff as to their knowledge of tomato varieties. Last Fall I called and wanted all of my listings in the yearbook to be deleted, and they were, but all that man really wanted to ask is if I would donate my seed collection to SSE and I never got back to him and never would I do that anyway,

I'm not the only one deleting listings, that I know. many of us long term SSE members do not like the direction that SSE is taking, and no, I'm not going to be specific here.

If I haven't asnwered your questions please just post in this thread and tell me what I left out.

Carolyn

Thanks Carolyn for the information. My Husband and only Give Donations to the Seed Saver Exchange on behalf of you, N.C Tomatoman, and many others even in Canada for putting up with my communication difficulties because of Dyslexia for over a decade while I tried to Identify all the Food grown here my Contraband Slaves, to uncover the Farming Secrets and Botanical use of the Nation Americans Food History. My Travels Across the united States over the last 19 years in person was 100 percent better than communicating on garden forums this these because I talk better than I communicate on page. I have applied for farming loans to the point were I am just think I have been completely destroyed because people did not understand me are my Mission. I can say the world is changing for sure if Seed Saver Exchange is changing.

The Contributions you and Gray have made along with many of you set me Aback with slow thoughts of Why!!!

19 years ago there was an 85 year old lady up the road from one of our historical farmland and she told me the descriptions of many food grow here. She stated that their was a wild tomato still grounding here. Many of the Contraband Slaves only kept a description of the foods taught to them:to keep Native Americans Secrets. Since We own the late House Built by a Hands of Contraband Slave It became my mission to learn more about them. My home was Constructed by the first James Kirkpatrick whom build houses as is trade during slavery. So he built this home with 4x4 as studs above building codes of today Codes. So, I know these people was very intelligent. They also traded their food to other counties after the Civil War using only their description of Native American Foods to help the secrets the Vegetable.

So When I was communicating with you-all over the years, I only has those discretion of the Vegetables and Fruits. So when the Description was a wild tomato_ That meant it was a tomato supply of food that grew back each year. I was told that while visiting an Indian Reservations in Texas many years ago.

Like you, I really don't like the Ground Cherry. But my husband do. It's too new to me. Maybe because I am still in shark that I walked around a important food source used my the Contraband Slavey. They are too small to pick and take to a farmer market. But they are sweet. With the full Identities of the Contraband Food History. I am working on collecting the Irish Food Vegetable and Fruit history. Because the Native Americans Helped them to survive here as well and shared the farming and food secrets with them and the Irish shared their seeds with the Native Americans as well. So fare many of the Irish Vegetables are Biennials: But I have have 6 growing so far.


I donated the Money always and last year seeds in your Honor. I will stop if you want me too because it was not easy for you-all to understand me and help me learn Complicated research over a decade.

It is Sad when the World Change

[carolyn137]

I donated the Money always and last year seeds in your Honor. I will stop if you want me too because it was not easy for you-all to understand me and help me learn Complicated research over a decade.

%%%%%

No, I don't mind if you do that but usually when someone donates money in honor of someone it's b'c they have passed on to the Gods and Godesses of tomatoes in that big sky above, and fact is that I'm very much alive at age 75.

I've been reading a book called Freeing Charles and chose that one b'c Charles finally escaped from the south and made his way to Troy, NY, traveling on the underground railroad that so many did from the south. Troy is right near me and many of the places and roads mentioned I know very well/

And the subject of Contraband Slaves was brought up, but no detailed information about food crops they grew either in the south or in the north where Charles finally settled.

The book that was the basis of the movie 12 Years a Slave was written by Solomon Northrup and he and his family lived very close to where I now live so from his book I also knew of the various towns and villages mentioned in the book that are still here today.

Carolyn

[MrsJustice]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I donated the Money always and last year seeds in your Honor. I will stop if you want me too because it was not easy for you-all to understand me and help me learn Complicated research over a decade.

%%%%%

No, I don't mind if you do that but usually when someone donates money in honor of someone it's b'c they have passed on to the Gods and Godesses of tomatoes in that big sky above, and fact is that I'm very much alive at age 75.

I've been reading a book called Freeing Charles and chose that one b'c Charles finally escaped from the south and made his way to Troy, NY, traveling on the underground railroad that so many did from the south. Troy is right near me and many of the places and roads mentioned I know very well/

And the subject of Contraband Slaves was brought up, but no detailed information about food crops they grew either in the south or in the north where Charles finally settled.

The book that was the basis of the movie 12 Years a Slave was written by Solomon Northrup and he and his family lived very close to where I now live so from his book I also knew of the various towns and villages mentioned in the book that are still here today.

Carolyn

You know me, I get everything Backwards most of the time. I have learned to laugh at myself sometimes. My thinking is very different than others. Just when I think I have a good Ideal, it Backwards. So I will continue to give and not be listed in the years books. But I am very thankful, that many people are beginning to understand my mission. It have taken me many years to unfold the Farming Secrets Native Americans taught the Contraband Slaves. The Native Americans had to trust me first for many of years. The Contraband Slaves used their food history to feed New Cities of Freed Slaves. The Farmers Called themselves "Professional Farmers". That why I wanted you-all to teach me how to be a Professional Farmer. I learned the Food history from you-all but I had to learn the Farming Secrets from the Natives Americans, and Hawaiian Natives.

I am just Happy many people are beginning to understand me and Love me Now.
Just like the book you are reading now. The Author like yourself, unfold real life events and cities to make you feel very close the fact of the real story.



Farmer, Joyce Beggs

[Gardeneer]

i grew Bloody Butcher, Matina, and Stupice last year.
As far as I can remember they all had clearly PL.
And my main reason for dropping them was just because of that , PL.
PL , I have found out are more prone to grey mold in my location. But that is beyond the point.

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

i grew Bloody Butcher, Matina, and Stupice last year.
As far as I can remember they all had clearly PL.
And my main reason for dropping them was just because of that , PL.
PL , I have found out are more prone to grey mold in my location. But that is beyond the point.

I was actually impressed with this cultivar Bloody butcher ...it does eventually turn to PL

but geese this one the new growth sure is NOT .

I Just Love my Matina it seems to be fairly disease resistant and blemish free fruit

the Stupice and Kimberly are always the first PL for me .



Botrytis blight, or gray mold,
you have ??????

there are other Tomatoes that are less susceptible in your case ????

What variety works better for you for this factor ???

[MrsJustice]

I think the Bloody Butcher are the only deep red PL, I have ever grown.

Can someone list all the deep red Pl Heirloom only? Not the Drawfs

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by MrsJustice

I think the Bloody Butcher are the only deep red PL, I have ever grown.

Can someone list all the deep red Pl Heirloom only? Not the Drawfs

Joyce, it would take a very long time for me or others to do that but you'd have to specify if referring to;

Size of fruits as well since, for instance, there are very few large beefsteak PL varieties and yes, more PL small reds , but not all that many that are HEIRLOOM ones.

If someone wants to do that for you, that would be great, but without histories on some of them it wouldn't be easy and I know that right now I don't have the time to do it.

Just curious, but why are you interested in PL RED HEIRLOOMS and ALL of them?

Carolyn

[MrsJustice]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Joyce, it would take a very long time for me or others to do that but you'd have to specify if referring to;

Size of fruits as well since, for instance, there are very few large beefsteak PL varieties and yes, more PL small reds , but not all that many that are HEIRLOOM ones.

If someone wants to do that for you, that would be great, but without histories on some of them it wouldn't be easy and I know that right now I don't have the time to do it.

Just curious, but why are you interested in PL RED HEIRLOOMS and ALL of them?

Carolyn

Yes that would be a large Job: Miss Carolyn. But thank you for you for your concerns. I think you are beginning to understand me over the years. You know deep in your heart there was a historical reason of my interest in the Potato Leaf Tomatoes Plants. I Too have realized you love and passion for the heart shape tomatoes over the years, but I have never ask Why?

For over 15 years I have been trying to find the PL Pink Tomato Plant Tomas Jefferson brought to Monticello, after marrying is wife "as his wife family was already growing the Red Brandywines Tomatoes on the property before his marriages. After ruling out the Pinkish-Red "Cindy West Virginia PL": . The Only Tomato to fit Tomas Jefferson description that he added from Italy is the Sudduth's Strain Brandywine Tomatoes with Pl.

Farmer,
Joyce Beggs