Info on the Crimson gene

[travis]

Originally Posted by original

I'm not really interested in any carotinoids other than lycopene.

Then for sure I'd go with Tangerine as a parent.
http://www.nutraingredients.com/Rese...vailable-study

Originally Posted by original

... this is about the Crimson Gene as stated earlier.

And maybe cross Tangerine with Plum Crimson, Plum Regal, or one of the other NCSU lines that carry the crimson gene. Then go from there toward both red and orange segregations and round or elongated, whichever you like.


However, be aware that several of the plum varieties from NCSU carry ms-10 male sterile gene linked to the aa green stem seedling marker gene, so cull and discard any starts showing the green stem expression.

Of course you may want to ask Dr. Gardner if he has suggestions as to which variety or what the appropriate protocol is regarding using those lines.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/pro...seedlines.html

[doublehelix]

I thought I might add that if anyone is reading this and has some lines that they have bred and are no longer going to pursue, I would be interested in some seeds. Again, looking for ogog lines. Thanks.

[Tom Wagner]

I thought I might add that if anyone is reading this and has some lines that they have bred and are no longer going to pursue, I would be interested in some seeds. Again, looking for og/og lines. Thanks.

Original,

I waited a bit before answering this post. I feel like the new Freshman in college sometimes....
"Freshmen who only live in the dorms may attend unplanned, unorganized, and uncontrolled “off campus” parties or be involved in illegal “tomato events” behind locked doors in the dorms."

The first two years of my University of Kansas experience was thus. Seriously, I don't like to send out varieties that had MTA's involved, or varieties that you can get elsewhere that don't have the restrictions involved. I try to be organized in my breeding work but everything else is woefully in the Freshman class.

Each year I think I am going to be organized with my seeds, especially in their dispersal via a web site. I may, or may not, be successful in getting help in organizing my listing to tomato lines, all of which are beyond the MTA restrictions since multiple generations of breeding separate them from the original sign-offs. The problem is...I have to write up a description of each and that is a problem with thousands of possible lines with very few seeds available.

You have given me a thought about a sub-class of tomato varieties....very red, crimson, og etc., lines that have some value for the aspiring breeder or for someone who wants to explore high lycopene tomatoes. I could do that.

Since you mentioned varieties one may no longer pursue...I have many of those. And since you mentioned also the og/og lines, I have many divergent lines of those. However, there is one little problem about og lines. The gene is linked closely with the determinate gene (sp) on chromosome six. It can be done, but getting a true breeding indeterminate with true breeding og/og alleles is somewhat rare. I sometimes wondered why I had so....so many....introgressed og lines that were still determinate...and when you are dealing with trying to get the best flavor with tomatoes ya gotta almost go with indeterminates.....just something you learn after awhile.

The main reason I work with og lines is mostly to get very red gel around the seeds. I test out the recombinants by cutting into tomato fruits that are just breaking color...the gel with og/og seem to be redder. I rarely go back to the flowers on og/og lines to see if the flowers are OLD GOLD.....ya know why? Silly, the vines are almost determinant and when the tomatoes are ripe, the flowers are long since gone! Any stragglers..you couldn't tell if they were OLD GOLD or OLD YELLER!

If you are growing your own tomatoes it doesn't really matter much if you have high lycopene line or not...you are eating so many tomates you are 85% tomato by weight anyway. Why would you need more lycopene during tomato season?

I do like the idea of getting really red gel in tomato fruits that are also breeding true for the Blue OSU types. I will be talking with a restaurant to see if they want to brag about the highest lycopene, highest anthocyanin, highest brix tomato in the world. For publicity purposes, I would want the restaurant to remove every seed in the quartered tomatoes so that patrons cannot save seed! It would make it akin to the TV program in the UK some 15 years ago or so about serving the Green Zebra without seeds in the menu. At one time, the Green Zebra was not a registered variety in the UK and could not legally be grown. That show was supposed to be comedy except that it was too close to reality. But then reality show are popular...now aren't they?


By December, I will know if I have a tomato listing available or not. But I would not hold your breath, as I am still that Freshman......off campus, unorganized, and involved in illegal tomato events behind closed doors! My major sin is being part of a maculate misconception in tomato breeding, the blood red stain of high lycopene breeding signifies a near demonic obsession unless I confess my digressions.

Tom Wagner

[maf]

Originally Posted by Tom Wagner

I have used Florida lines with high lycopene also to breed to other heirloom types but most of those are not available. I had at least one released in Holland a number of years ago and that is a popular large cherry type.

Tom, any reason you didn't mention the variety name? That sounded like one I might like to grow, and if available in Holland would likely be obtainable here in UK also.

(Interesting thread btw, hope I am not sidetracking it too much by asking this.)

[Tom Wagner]

Maf,

In 1981, I sent a hybrid to Ontario to be entered in a yield trial. It turned out to be the earliest of the entries and a fair yield to boot. Fast forward that clone to a stable early large cherry that was crossed with a crimson line originating from Ontario in those same trials to get a redder tomato and then crossing that with Brandywine (potato leaf pink) from Stokes Seeds. Growing that segregating clone in California to get an early potato leaf, saladette type tomato with very red interiors was implemented to use in further hybrids. The Cuyama Valley in California became the first template for the actual selection process. I was no longer at Sun World doing my tomato breeding work due to the conflicts of Tobacco mosaic, even though I had solved the seed treatment protocol, I was finishing up my tomato project where I also grew my potato varieties up in this mountain valley.

I took off a few years from heavy tomato growing until 1994 and 1995 when this clone was grown to stabilize it. Various alternate clones were increased in Indio, Bakersfield, Newman, Fresno and a few other locations. I had several names for it and my records are in a storage shed in Bakersfield since 1996.

I have used the various clones in so many breeding venues that I shifted my versions to fit the Seattle weather factors for the last seven years.


Tom Wagner

[maf]

Thanks for the info Tom. Was hoping to find this one to grow next spring, but I guess it is back to the backup plan instead - Floridity F1.

[doublehelix]

Thanks Tom for the info. I smiled more than once. I learned a while back that I lack in many areas and when those areas (always by others ha-ha) are identified then I try to delegate them to someone more capable. However, it is hard for me to let go of anything because I always think I will get around to it. Ha.

I was not aware that og is linked to plants being determinate. That might put a whole new spin on things. It caused a bit of a pucker for sure when I read that. I had a flash back to trying to get a particular fruit fly to show up for a genetics class and it approaching December with still no white eyes and whatever else it was I was trying to get. It's not that I won't pursue anything with linkage, but I for sure don't want to make it my primary project. I have to say that the red gel is as intriguing as anything. I would love to get that scarlet red gel in several things that come to mind. And yes, most of the summer I am mostly lycopene. But I see this more as having a pretty car that ALSO has a strong engine. The color is what I like, but the lycopene content is a very nice thing too.

I don't imagine there are more than a few hundred amateur tomato breeders out there so I doubt that making seed available would do much for making you rich. It would, however, give life to some of your work that you are either too busy for or no longer interested in. Perhaps instead of describing those thousands of lines you could just put together groups that have similar characteristics and sell them as a package. For example, you could have a few seeds of 10 or 15 varieties and sell them as package deal. I'm sure there are several folks that would pay $25-$50 for a group like that. It would mostly(not completely) keep everyone but hybridizers from wanting them. Just a thought. I have some other ideas, but I don't want to put them out there right now. Perhaps I should take this up in a PM?

Anyway, I'm still planning out what I hope to accomplish and for sure still reading and learning.

...and confession is good for the soul. tehe...

[cdntomato]

Late on the mark, but am adding in anyway...

AgCanada, when it still maintained experimental stations and employed breeders of excellence like the late Ernie Kerr, did much work with the crimson gene. Most of the varieties in these lines are no longer in circulation but remain, however poorly maintained, in Canadian and US national genebanks.

Edward Louden collected Kanatto/Kannato either in Italy or from an Italian immigrant to Ontario (the story waffles). PGRC and USDA have different spellings for what appears to be the same critter--I've done phenotyping but not genotyping of both.

Should mention that when Ernie left the government he went on to head the breeding programme at Stokes.

Jennifer

[SteveS]

I am growing High Crimson & Crimson Sprinter for high lycopene, Matt's Wild Cherry for high total carotenoids, Tangerine for cis-lycopene, OSU Blue, Purple Smudge & 3 of Tom Wagner's F3 blue lines for Anthocyanin this season.

It will definitely be a colorful mess!

Steve