Mandy's Greenhouse

[GooberStraw]

Does anyone have any experience with Mandy's Greenhouse in Manitoba, Canada? http://www.mandysgreenhouse.com/index.html

I just stumbled upon this vendor but never heard of it, so I searched the archive but couldn't find any mention of her. She offers a wide selection of heirloom tomato plants for folks living in Canada. I think it says somewhere on the site that you can email her to get a list of her tomato seeds.

[dokutaaguriin]

I do not have any experience with this company but did notice quite a few errors with her varietal descriptions.....4000 year old Egyptian seeds,
Jeff

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by dokutaaguriin

I do not have any experience with this company but did not notice quite a few errors with her varietal descriptions.....4000 year old Egyptian seeds,
Jeff

Jeff, I know you meant to say that you DID notice quite a few errors.

I didn't bother to even look at that list b'c if someone is listing Oos Oos Pei, ( I think that's the spelling, maybe not)the supposed tomato variety that appeared in Egypt even before tomatoes were dispersed to the East by the Spaniards several centuries ago, well, I don't need to go to that list.

Oos Oos Pei was listed by someone in the SSE YEarbook for years and years and so help me some folks actually believed it.

If it's plants you want that's one thing, but if seeds are you want to grow your own or even look at a great list of varieties for Canadians then I suggest you take a look at Jeff's website which is:

http://members.shaw.ca/jwlcasey/Case...toes/Home.html

And he's a Canadian as well.

[GooberStraw]

Thank you both for responding, Carolyn & Jeff.

AFAIK, there's no mention of Oos Oos Pei (what a funny name for a tomato!) anywhere on the site. I think Jeff refers to the description of Nile River Egyptian:

55. Nile River Egyptian – this variety said to come from Egypt….showing in their history 4000 years ago. Fruits are variable in shape…. some appear as beefsteak, some look like oxhearts, some pointed and some pleated. Large…?? 2 lbs one seed supplier says…..and very tasty! Large plants are vigorous and very productive. A first-class sandwich maker. Ind. 75-80 days
source: http://www.mandysgreenhouse.com/ht-beefsteaks.html

Is Oos Oos Pei the same variety as Nile River Egyptian?

Jeff - can you point out what other errors you came across in the varietal descriptions? Are they serious enough that the vendor should be avoided?

[Sherry_AK]

It's a source I wouldn't want to depend on to get the plants I wanted, since she says she only grows from 2 to 9 plants of each variety.

[carolyn137]

Yes. many errors but I'm not going to take the time to list them all. It's also clear that this person has my tomato book and is also an SSE member as well.

I looked him up in the SSE Yearbook, he's from Quebec, he lists a seed source for Nile whatever as GR 28 which is not even one of the extensive lists of seed source abbreviations found in the front of the YEarook.

Yes, his Nile Egyptian is the same as Oos Pie b'c that 4,000 year figure remains in my head. Totally ignoring the fact that tomatoes only left Mexico with the Spanish in the about 1500's it's impossible that any tomatoes would be there.

In addition I also found he lists Sandia Gem which is not the original name, it was Sandia Mountain as I recall, so he's changed the name of this one as well, and he gives the same wrong history of this one as well. He says radiocarbon dating showed the satchel in which the seeds were found dates to about 1800, but radiocarbon dating can't be done on objects that young b'c the isotope measured doesn't decay that quickly. He also cites the source of the satchel of seeds in Peru, but it was in the US SW, one of the states there like NM or Arizona or the like. I didn't take the time to even go back to my old Yearbooks to find this.

he is slavic in origin and lists quite a few varieties that come from that region and many of them are varieties I introduced although he doesn't say that. No problem there, I could care, and did attribute one variety to me.

So no, if it were me I'd have a healthy suspicion about buying plants there but there were some histories that were correct but can one say that about the plants grown when so few are being grown/variety, so who knows.

[GooberStraw]

You seem to be talking about someone else because the vendor is a woman from Manitoba although she may have acquired the Nile River Egyptian seeds from Quebec or from Solana or Heritage Harvest Seed.

It looks like the vendor got her information about Sandia Gem from Seeds of Diversity, where it has essentially the same description, carbon-dating and all. I presume she thought that Seeds of Diversity is an authoritative source.

It's good that this forum exists to check the accuracy of vendors' descriptions.

[carolyn137]

I went back to the original link to Mandy's Garden which is to the home page and yes, she is from Manitoba. What I had looked at was a link that brought me just to the list of tomatoes.

The person listing Nile River Egytian in the current SSE YEarbook is from Quebec.

However the fact remains that there were no tomatoes in Egypt 4000 years ago and radiocarbon dating can't be used to determine something that's only about 200 years old as with Sandia Gem.

I was a member of SODC for many years in the 90's when Heather Apple was head of it and there used to be many US folks who listed there but I don't know what it's like now.

SODC is no more authoritative than other places as to what folks list. If they believe the background on something they'll list it. And many don't even list a background. There are currently many Canadian SSE members from many different provinces who list varieties in the SSE Yearbook.

The Egyptian one as Nile River, was first listed in the 1992 SSE YEarbook by someone who at the time was also listing at SODC, I know him well, and his source for it was from someone in the state of WA and it's been listed from time to time in the SSE Yearbook but not in every yearbook and by only 1 or 2 persons when it is listed.

So if it's plants or seeds you're looking for why not try and see how it goes with Mandy if you wish.

Two other excellent places to get seeds in Canada are at Jeff's website which I linked to above as well as Tania's website, she's in BC and her data base is an excellent place to check out the specifics of over 2000 different varieties and where they can be purchased from if indeed they are sold commercially. She also sells seeds:

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Main_Page

I hope the above helps.

[GooberStraw]

Thank you, Carolyn.

[Tomaat]

I know nothing about tomato history and no longer mad about collecting them, but I have ordered small amount of her seeds, good service and fast !

[heritagehollow]

Hi everyone! It is my first time to your enlightening forum! I have been following the comments on the above subject matter. It is interesting to note that certain folks, never having met the lady heirloom vegetable tomato grower from Manitoba...seem to know soooo very much about her.

1) In defense, this lady spends her entire winters researching all the info...cross checking it and rechecking it against information obtained from ALL knowledgeable sources that she has access to. There is alot of info out there...wrong info and correct info.

2) Egyptian and Asian are some of the oldest civilizations on the planet. Unless you existed in this time frame you cannot tell our gentle readers that the tomato DID NOT exist there in some form 4000 years ago. There are soooo many people out there that call themselves Experts which is a huge error on their part, because there are more pockets of missing information than there is available information. AND there exists evidence that other vegetables have existed for far older than the tomato...so why not the tomato?

3) NO Carol, she does not have your book...it was wrong for you to presume any such thing.

4) As I recall the person in question who started the "ball rolling" on this subject, just wanted SOMEONE who has had experience with this business to just let them about their experiences. The kindest response was the lady on 05-06-2010, who had in fact personal experience with the company. Way to go!

5) Tomato history that is available is only as good as the people that supply it. Is it absolutely correct...no one knows for sure...we are humans, all of us after all!

6) As a heritage vegetable grower myself, I thoroughly enjoy making a connection with each and every variety that I make contact with. It is as important to have a history as it is to have growing information. This lady's website site supplies BOTH. That is a rarity in today's seed/plant supplier companies. Usually one sees only a small amount of info. per. As I understand, it takes a of of time to devote to this.

7) Also, she herself trials out several 100's varieties and grows many of the same for seed saving. She also follows and is very aware of the stringent rules regarding the purity of seed. Did you see how many she has?? This is ALL done by just her! She has NO staff. She also has a network of friends and other vegetable growers around the country & continent that help her maintain this huge inventory. At least she is making a conscious effort in doing her part in the promotion and preservation of heritage seed. It is a labor of love for her.

8) We as conscionable heritage preservationists, should spend more time and energy on helping and supporting one another, than finding faults. IF there has been a HUGE error made then contact her and offer her the CORRECT information! She will be open to it! BTW, lets not get growers mixed up when we write!

Thank you all for listening! Happy growing!

[carolyn137]

2) Egyptian and Asian are some of the oldest civilizations on the planet. Unless you existed in this time frame you cannot tell our gentle readers that the tomato DID NOT exist there in some form 4000 years ago. There are soooo many people out there that call themselves Experts which is a huge error on their part, because there are more pockets of missing information than there is available information. AND there exists evidence that other vegetables have existed for far older than the tomato...so why not the tomato?

****

We do know that tomatoes existed no where except the temperate regions of primarily Chile and Peru and we do know that tomatoes didn't leave this continent until the Spanish distributed them from Mexico in the 1500's to the Caribbean, Spain and some places in Asia where they were doing trading. And we have documentation that the first tomatoes introduced into Spain from Mexico were yellow and that it was monks from Spain that introduced red ones into Italy and we have documentationj of when they got to italy.

What we don[t have is a clear picture of how tomatoes for from South America to Mexico although several theories have been put forward.

And all of that is documented in various tomato history books and various sources on the net. One of the best is the History of the Tomato by Andrew F. Smith.

I also spoke above to Oos Oos Pei and Nile River Egytian. Both of those varieties were listed in the SSE Years ago as well as Sandia Mountain, aka Sandia Gem, so I won't repeat what I wrote above.

The histories that folks use in the SSE Yearbook are usually correct, for the most part, but from time to time some fanciful information is passed on. A case in point is Sandia Mountain where it was claimed that seeds were found in a leather bag in about 1800 or so and that carbon dating proved that. That's wrong b'c carbon dating can't be used for such short time periods.

I'm sure you know that many folks will judge a particular site based on the descriptions and photos of varieties shown and you also saw in the posts above that many saw errors, as did I. I used to spend quite a bit of time, especially after I retired, contacting places when I saw wrong information, some appreciated it, others didn't and I haven't done that in a long time. I may do it at a message site such as this one, but that's a different story, and I feel more comfortable interacting with persons at a message site than I did at some seed companies.

3) NO Carol, she does not have your book...it was wrong for you to presume any such thing.

****

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and it doesn't make any difference anyway. When I look at descriptions I can often recognize verbiage that I've seen before and I can also recognize when one site uses a special word, such as SESE using quintessential to describe a tomato taste and how that spread to the descriptions at several other sites. And I can see descriptions at some sites being copied almost word for word at other sites/

My passion has always been tomatoes and to date I.ve grown about 2500 varieties. I especially enjoy ferreting out tomato histories and I started doing that in about 1983 so have a lot of mileage behind me. Actually I'll be 71 in a couple of weeks so there's lots of mileage behind me anyway.

I've been posting online aabout gardening in general and tomatoes more specifically, since 1989 so lots of years to get information and feedback. And with the exception of the 1982 SSE YEarbook I have all of them back to 1975 when SSE started and they are a wonderful source of information as I noted above when discussing Nile River Egytian. I joined SSE in 1989 and am still a listed member but stopped listing with SODC after Heather Apple left.

But now that I'm restricted to a walker from a fall I have to rely on someone else to do all my growing.

Are you the owner of Heritage Harvest Seed Company?

I don't think such a defensive post has been the best thing to do for your first post here, just my opinion and obviously you felt strongly about what you were posting about, but I'm glad you find the site enlightning, as you said, and look forward to other posts from you in other Forums.

So welcome.

Thanks for posting.

[nctomatoman]

Well, this paragraph is something that causes me great concern.

"OF SPECIAL NOTE: It is not uncommon for a stable tomato variety to suddenly show a different leaf form, other than, what it was known for. Any of those listed, could veer off the normal path at any given year! Fruit color….included!"

That shows to me a disregard for tomato genetics and understanding of what makes a stable open pollinated variety.

[heritagehollow]

Firstly, in response to Carolyn,
Thank you for enlightening me on your creditentials. I am aware of some books that you have penned. I am also aware of the "honorable' following that you have earned.
I have never heard of Oos Oos Pei, so I will not comment.
That there is numerous conflicting information on various tomato varieties, I am painfully aware. I am also aware of numerous sites passing on descriptons, word for word as from other sites.
That was not the issue. The issue was that negative feedback that was made toward a small plant and seed supplier without either ever having done business with the company in question. It was more important that extreme accuracy was maintained, than clients being offered great service.
If accuracy is the most important issue, then it should be on the onus of those "in the know" to take responsiblity and kindly have the errors corrected...if this so offends them. Approach is everything, when it comes to those who are trying to do their very best.
No, I am not the owner of Heritage Harvest Seed.

Secondly. in response to Craig,
I have grown out and trailed close to 1000 different varieties of heirloom tomato varieties. I myself, have also maintained indepth growing records for most all for the last 20 years. I have noticed leaf changes ie) changing from regular leaf form to a potato leaf form in some very commonly grown varieties. (This was especially true for the Brandywine series...) This was seed obtained from very reputable houses...such as the SSE. I have not questioned the reliability of the seed houses. I would agree that, just as the Copia was obtained...the potential is out there.
I also do not see certain varieties perform the same way, year after year. Anyone who will try to tell me this is stretching the truth. Variables in our weather systems have us scratching our heads, more year after year. As we are effected by the termendous fluctuations, so will plant material be effected. I am no stranger to these changes.

In closing, opinions are everyone's option. BUT the opinion of a few does not make masters of all. We are all entitled to them. We are just not entitled to hurt someone else because of it.
It did not take a few people to ensure the great diversity that we have come to enjoy of late. It took 1000's of all kinds of people from all over the world, for 100's, no not 100's, but 1000's of years in preservation efforts, so that we might today enjoy the fruits of their toil.
Have a great day everyone!

[nctomatoman]

I disagree completely with regard to foliage changes and fruit changes. What then determines a variety? It is something that is fixed in characteristics. If you are seeing varieties showing variable fruit and foliage, there are stray seed or crossing issues at play. This is not opinion, it is science. If we aren't accurate in keeping strains pure, ensuring that we know the exact set of genetic characteristics that comprise a particular variety, then we run the risk of allowing it all to become lost through future years. You note fruit color included! That's crazy talk, really (to quote Kramer from one of my favorite shows, Seinfeld)!!!!