When can you name a F1 hybrid?

[PureHarvest]

So let's say you cross 2 open pollinated named varieties.
You now have a hybrid. When can it be named a new variety?
Do you have to go through research protocol to find out that there are no others like it?
If so, how do you do that?

[jmsieglaff]

Since a lot of F1s have secret parental lines you'd never know for sure. Maybe make a check of the two parents in a web search of nothing shows up, go for it. Or maybe wait until you grow out the F1 and if it something special that should be shared then maybe that's the more appropriate time to name an F1. Just thinking out loud.

[travis]

Are you talking about professionally developed hybrids with the intent to sell certified F1 seed on a continuing basis, or the hobby tomato breeding currently raging among home gardeners who frequent this and other tomato discussion boards?

[PureHarvest]

Travis, both.

[travis]

Originally Posted by travis

Are you talking about professionally developed hybrids with the intent to sell certified F1 seed on a continuing basis, or the hobby tomato breeding currently raging among home gardeners who frequent this and other tomato discussion boards?

The reason I asked this is because if you truly wish to produce and sell F1 hybrid tomato seed on a continuing basis, you will have to first develop and continually maintain standardized, true breeding parental lines.

You cannot expect to simply take pollen from a single example of one named open pollinated variety, and apply it to another single example of another open pollinated variety, year after year, and get the exact same heterozygous gene pair combinations ... UNLESS you first spend several years growing large populations of the same two parental varieties, culling out the irregulars, and selecting only the target standards to establish the two, standardized, true breeding parental lines.

The same issue exists if you were to hit upon a great hybrid combo of two named open pollinated varieties, named the F1 hybrid, revealed to a second party (or the world) the two parent varieties with the intent that others will replicate your hybrid tomato. They may be lucky enough to have on hand, or obtain, an example of each open pollinated parent to make a close enough replication; or they may not. The current sourcing of general production, open pollinated, named varieties, particularly for the so-called "heirloom" types, is not necessarily known for standardization to the extent required to attain "true breeding" parental lines.

On the other hand, if your intent is to explore the pleasurable tomato breeding hobby, as many of us have, then by all means use your best examples of the various tomato varieties you have on hand, and cross pollinate them, grow the F1 seed, discover which combinations excel in the characteristics you find valuable, and name the hybrid what you wish (after a reasonable check to see if the same name or combination has not previously been used).

[PureHarvest]

Very good info Travis.
I guess I assumed that good breeders had really stable lines that would work for crossing.
So you would ideally start with those and grow out to get parent lines?

[travis]

Originally Posted by PureHarvest

Very good info Travis.
I guess I assumed that good breeders had really stable lines that would work for crossing.
So you would ideally start with those and grow out to get parent lines?

"Good" is a subjective adjective.

Yes, the professional breeders upon whose hybrid seed you can depend for consistency maintain fully standardized, stable true breeding lines from which they produce their F1 hybrid seeds. Hopefully, this is true of the commercial breeders who now are producing these so-called "heritage hybrids" or "heirloom hybrids" where they take two well respected heirloom or heritage tomato varieties and cross them for the specialty or fad market.

Many hobby breeders simply cross two parent plants from among their annual garden crop, and see what comes out of the cross. Sometimes their choices of parents are carefully planned based upon research of each parent's genetics. Other times the cross is based purely on visually appealing characteristics, flavor, or even currently popular attributes like anthocyanin colored fruit or striped skin, etc.

I've done it based upon any number of characteristics, from year to year, lately based upon heat setting ability, background disease resistance, compact growth habits, crack resistance, smooth/scar free appearance, high yield, and yes, flavor and color variations are something I strive to achieve. One of my most interesting crosses was done several years ago based upon Keith Mueller's suggestion that I cross the two varieties I had which were the most different from each other. That was a real project for a while, I tell you.

I do not intend to replicate F1 hybrid seed year after year. That is not even a consideration when I cross tomatoes. So, I really cannot say much more than I already have regarding annual production of hybrid tomato seed that reliably replicates the original. If you want to get more professional info, I would seek it from people like Dr. Randy Gardner, Dr. Jay Scott, and Mark McCaslin. Fred Hempel also can give you very exact info on what is expected of a person who wishes to produce hybrid seed for commercial sale.

I'm only a hobby breeder for backyard fun and entertainment. What I do is make the initial cross, then select what I find to be the best examples of what I am after from among the subsequently segregating and recombining selfed individuals, generation after generation.

[Worth1]

What if a person accidentally came across sun gold while they were breeding and crossing plants?
Yours is a secret and so is theirs, and you wanted to commercially sell the seeds.

Worth

[NarnianGarden]

Originally Posted by Worth1

What if a person accidentally came across sun gold while they were breeding and crossing plants?
Yours is a secret and so is theirs, and you wanted to commercially sell the seeds.

Worth

That would be nice... perhaps an upgraded version of SunGold that is less prone to cracking.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

That would be nice... perhaps an upgraded version of SunGold that is less prone to cracking.

From what I have heard SunGold came out of Japan.
These people are known to go to the extremes with things, who knows what they did to develop it.
Worth

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Worth1

From what I have heard SunGold came out of Japan.
These people are known to go to the extremes with things, who knows what they did to develop it.
Worth

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/SunGold_F1

Carolyn, who sees the two largest breeding companies in Japan,Tokita and Sakita I think it is, as excelling in the many wonderful varieties they have developed be it tomatoes,melons,you name it, using conventional breeding, nothing extreme at all,

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/SunGold_F1

Carolyn, who sees the two largest breeding companies in Japan,Tokita and Sakita I think it is, as excelling in the many wonderful varieties they have developed be it tomatoes,melons,you name it, using conventional breeding, nothing extreme at all,

I bet they massage feed green tea and play music to the mother plants.
Worth

[bower]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/SunGold_F1

Carolyn, who sees the two largest breeding companies in Japan,Tokita and Sakita I think it is, as excelling in the many wonderful varieties they have developed be it tomatoes,melons,you name it, using conventional breeding, nothing extreme at all,

That tells me that they understand very well how to choose or develop the parent lines that will make a superior F1 hybrid.
I don't find it surprising that market F1's mostly come from in house breeding lines. I suspect a lot of work is needed to get the right parents that will combine in just the right way. Not that it couldn't happen with two random or select OP parents, but...

[bower]

Being involved in the amateur breeding 'craze' has given me new respect for just how challenging it is to find an F1 with the beneficial 'heterosis' of some kind that would make it worth the effort to produce F1 seed for use or sale.

Commercially there's always a strong focus on the disease resistance traits which can only be 'stacked' in the heterozygous condition.
Heterosis for higher yield is another desirable, but parent plants with that 'combining ability' may not be that common.. perhaps some more experienced breeder could give a statistic on the frequency of finding such beneficial effects in the F1. There are specific traits to look for in one of the parents to accomplish that goal, afaik from what's been published (although there are also likely multiple roads to the same goal).
Yield heterosis would be a great target, if the heirloom parent(s) you have in mind are delicious but scanty producers. Finding an F1 that boosts production and yet really similar fruit to those scant producers would be really worthwhile.

I was disappointed last year growing out 9 F1 crosses and only found any earliness heterosis in one of them. The others were consistent in earliness of flowering matching the later parent.

On the other hand, some of the F1's that were reasonably early productive and tasty were not as much fun in the F2, making me think about those F1 seeds as perhaps more worth growing than other generations in those lines.

Anyway, you might try 'combining ability F1' or similar search terms to find helpful research that's been done... good luck and please keep us posted so we can learn from your project, if you will!

[PureHarvest]

Travis, my thought arose from contemplating doing a cross of two heirlooms i like. That, and reading up more lately on the rage with hobby breeding you mentioned (ive grown many years and never done a cross. How did I not get sucked into this earlier??!).
Basically, my thought was: "self, what if the resulting F1 was really cool looking, tasty, and productive? Can I now name it? That would be cool. Of course I could, b/c who could stop me."
But I wanted to know if that is uncool around here because it could cause confusion if I share seeds and this F1 has already been done by someone.
I assume that selling it commercially would mean proving that you have a distinct CV that could be registered somewhere and published.