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Old July 12, 2009   #1
TomatoDon
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Default The Great Fertilizer Debate! Does anything really beat....

I always like these threads because a lot of interesting ideas on fertilizing and fertilizers come to the surface -- some bordering on family secrets, almost as well kept as a bar-b-q sauce recipe!

I've had a lot of fun the past few days stopping by tomato patches around the country side and asking people what they are growing, why, and how they grow them. I've had some great stories on fertilizers. Yesterday, on the way to the gulf coast, I got a 20 minute discourse on the history of north American bat guano, the different kinds of bat guano, and the comparisons of bat guano with tropical bird guano. (Where is a film crew when you need it...and why do you only hear these things at roadside stands by retired sailers and other American classics...)

There's about a million fertilizers and fertilization techniques out there...but just to start this off...does anything really beat tomato formula Miracle Grow and/or a basic fish or seaweed fertilizer? If you could only use those, would your crop suffer? Will anything realistically beat those? If so, what? And why is it better?

I see some thriving tomatoes that haven't had any fertilizer since the day they were planted, and then I see plants in terrible shape that have been pampered weekly, and sometimes daily. (In the nursery business I think they call that "lovin' em to death.") So what works best?

I've mentioned a lot of fertilizers here before, and I doubt I could fit them all in the trunk of a car. No kidding...I collect that sort of stuff to try. But then reality sets in and I wonder...does anything really beat Miracle Grow, or any of the fish and seaweed formulas? I look at all these different kinds and think...wouldn't a handful of fish meal in the planting hole and then a monthly shot of Miracle Grow accomplish the same thing? (While being much simpler and cheaper.) Or are the methods we use part of the attraction and love of it all.

Yes, I did break down and buy one pound of imported bat guano from the retired sailor at the roadside tomato stand in his front yard. So, what do you use, and why? The more creative, eccentric, and secretive it is, the better!

Don
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Old July 12, 2009   #2
VGary
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Default Fertillzer Debate

Don, How long did it take for you to get to the Gulf Coast? lol

I use compost tea on my plants all the time and they love it! I have tried other things but this seems to work best for me. Of course I have the added chore of watering by hand since I cannot use tap water with chlorine. I save rain water and/or draw tap water and let it sit for 24 hours so the chlorine dissipates. Of course with my age and health, I am realizing I have to reduce the number of plants I grow each year. I have "foster" tomato growers already helping grow some tomato varieties and they love this arrangement.

All good wishes on your gardening efforts this season.
Gary
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Old July 12, 2009   #3
lumierefrere
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I don't use the blue stuff. I don't fertilize. Composted horse manure goes in the hole when I plant and that's it for the rest of the season. This seems to work out okay, I always have more tomatoes and more foliage than I can deal with but maybe my requirements/expectations are lower than other gardeners.
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Old July 12, 2009   #4
BigdaddyJ
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I use a couple shots of fish/kelp as seedlings and young transplants. After that all mine need are good soil and plenty of compost.
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Old July 12, 2009   #5
dice
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Would not that depend on your soil, sources of organic
amendments like compost and manure, whether you have
a truck (or animals on site), whether you are growing in
the ground or in containers, and so on? How much calcium
does your soil have? How much phosphorus? What is the pH?
Does it have any other unusual characteristics, excesses or
deficiencies of particular trace elements? How fast does
it drain (how fast do soluble nutrients leach out of it)? Are
you aiming for an earthworm friendly soil that needs
minimal fertilizing or do you simply treat it as artificial media
that needs x units of N-P-K to grow anything?

Years ago I used 10-20-20 artificial fertilizer from an
agricultural supply. Most things grew well, but the
earthworms were not happy with me (for them, it was
as if the soil had been laced with little land mines that
it was injurious to burrow through). If there were any
trace element deficiencies, I was stuck with them for
the season, because the fertilizer only contained N-P-K.

I have used MG and similar fertilizers. It was more work
because of the regular mixing up and fertilizing needed,
and the worms were still unhappy with the setup. For them,
it was like doses of acid rain at two week intervals. Those
fertilizers had some some trace elements, but not enough
calcium, so lime or gypsum needed to be added separately
(the soil was not naturally rich in calcium).

I have used fish emulsion, fish+kelp, and other soluble organic
fertilizers. The worms were happy with that setup, but I still
had the regular mixing and pouring to do. (One might be able
to avoid that with a drip system that has a fertilizer injector.
The mixing still has to be done, but the pouring is automatic.
Solids in suspension in the fertilizer need to be fine enough
to avoid clogging the drip emitters, so some filtering should
be built into the system.)

My method is evolving toward no-till with a winter cover crop
that recycles and fixes nitrogen, recycles some potassium,
and liberates chemically insoluble phosphorus. I top dress the
soil with compost or composted manure, and at this point I still
add a couple of handfuls of organic fertilizer per plant, one at
transplant and another at first fruit set. I like shredded leaves
for mulch.

As lime, gypsum, rock phosphate, and greensand have been
added to the soil, it progresses toward a state where it needs
less and less in the way of trace elements from a fertilizer. As
compost and manure have been added, it becomes friendlier
to earthworms, and they do more of the tilling and aeration
and supply more of the fertilizer themselves.

I usually use soluble fish emulsion or fish+kelp at transplant
to get them off to a good start, and I use that for a boost if
some plant seems to be underperforming. If I have the extra
compost and/or worm castings, I make compost tea and give
them a dose or two of that as a soil drench to accelerate the
transformation of recently added organic matter and roots from
the previous winter's cover crop into forms usable by the
earthworms and plants (humification).

My supplies of manure, compost, leaves, and so on are not
constant from one year to the next, and I try different winter
cover crops with varying results, so each year is a little
different as to what the plants need from a fertilizer. My soil
has enough clay in it that excessive fertilizer leaching from
rain or irrigation is not a problem, so whatever I add to it tends
to be available to the plants for the whole season.

In beds where the topsoil is not very deep yet and subsoil
is close to the surface, a hole full of horse manure or compost
with a handful of organic fertilizer in it under each transplant
is a big help.
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Old July 12, 2009   #6
pbud
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I tried a no till method this year for the first time and it's been working out well. I planted cover crops during winter, chopped them up and let fall, but didn't dig at all. Then put a load of horse manure over that. Covered that with cardboard to keep weeds down and put a load of compost on top of the cardboard. Then the rains of late Feb, March and April work worked that all together and I planted in late April. Plants are thriving and I haven't fertilized at all since planting.
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Old July 12, 2009   #7
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I have sandy clay soil. Soaker hoses only water a path about four inches wide, so I was having to run them for six or more hours to keep my plants from wilting during the hot season, even when covered with mulch. I added shredded cardboard and paper mixed with some oak and magnolia leaves, and kept adding it, and the water retention is much better this year. Plus, I now have worms.
That alone has helped my plants greatly. Otherwise, I just add tomato tone and whatever organic-ish stuff that I can pick up. This year I'm using an all stock pellet feed from Tractor Supply, 50# for less than $15, I tossed in some organic fish food leftover from when I ran my big 55 gal tank, a bag of cat food leftover from when our cats passed, and I'm mulching with hay. I've also doused them with Molasses, they seemed to appreciate that. I still have to water every day or two, but only for an hour or so, and the longer I water the less often I have to do it. This year I don't have the soakers going, I'm using an overhead watering system and carefully timing when I water so the fungii and diseases hopefully won't be as rampant as they normally would with an overhead system.
My plants are much bigger this year, and are producing more, but the heat is here so they're taking a break. I was digging in the corner to pop in a herb plant a few weeks ago and found moist, dark brown actual soil there, I was so excited! LOL Now I just need to replace my paper shredder and get back to piling the carbon in the garden.
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Old July 12, 2009   #8
TomatoDon
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Hi V-Gary,

As to the coast trip....I went in the daytime and had my camera so I stopped at every roadside tomato patch and stand I saw. Coming home was after dark...so going there was 8 hours and coming home was 5!

Since you mentioned using "tea" I wanted to mention that I always use a short piece of PVC pipe in the planting hole so I can get my water and nutrients right to the root zone without any run-off. This year I tried some a full 24" long (3" diameter) and I can jab these through the CRW (or cut one hole larger for it) and it stands tall enough and away from the plant enough to see even when the plants get big, and is easy to add diluted fertilizer, etc.

I have many that are a good bit shorter, but tried some longer ones this year, and this 24" is a good height/length and it might make it more convenient for you. It takes a LOT less water, too Gary, and you don't have all that run-off of water and fertilizers like with hand watering the whole garden with a hose or sprinkler. This year I decided to dig a smaller hole and sorta jab the PVC pipe in, only about 3-5 inches deep. This is deep enough to hold water so that it seeps in slowly, and is not so deep that it is UNDER the root zone. I use pretty diluted fertlilizer since I'm going straight to the root zone, and this way it seeps in slowly right over the roots. I have not tried a lot of fertilizer tea, but now that I have a larger capacity pipe I want to try some of the tea "recipes" and see how they compare.

Sounds like you have a nice system! Hope this helps a little!

Thanks!

DS
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Old July 12, 2009   #9
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As dice has said it is a loaded question. From the type of aggregate the plant is grown in to the method of growing whether it be organic or inorganic and whether it be in the ground or containers. Each method requires different approaches and regimens and growing location also dictate growing practices to be used.
Now that we are learning more about soil microorganisms and the role they play in the plant's rhizosphere, microbial inoculants are being used more and more as Biofertilizers and Biopesticides.
In my containers I use Bioferts and mycorrhizae along with Actinovate as a Biopesticide. Most of my organic ferts come from the cannabis side of the house as they are the experts as far as I'm concerned in container plant growing nutrition.
My surrogate garden at work is the only place I grow maters in the ground. It is a raised bed that I amend every year with horse manure, organic growing soil and organic fertilizer. This year I used T&J enterprises organic fertilizer kit plus BioVam mycorrhizae and Actinovate. After the plants got established I added some Neudorff organic tomaten dunger (tomato fertilizer) with bioinoculants.
To both my containers and surrogate plants I water with T&J's microbe tea and yucca extract every two weeks.
For disease control I have been making foliar applications of Actinovate and EXEL (Agri-Fos). Ami
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Old July 12, 2009   #10
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Default Different amendments for different folks

Climate, soil conditions, growing conditions and garden practices with rotation have caused me to amend differently than most. When I pull plants in early October and thus have a bare garden I work 1½ pounds of milorganite per 100 sq. feet as well as an entire bale of premium alfalfa. I rake and shallow till these in- then plant garlic in 1/6th of the garden. The next spring I use Tomato-Tone per recommendation at planting, and water in with AlgoFlash to help the seedlings get established. I do plan on buying the garden hose water filter this year, as our city water is probably no better than Vgary’s, which is only for plant survival at best. I believe these slower released micronutrients work better for me, and I don’t believe in the ‘quick fix’ 5-5-5 NPK granules- as it just produced failures for me.
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Old July 12, 2009   #11
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I'm cheap, so I mostly stick with good old fashioned fertile soil since it is available here. Also there is sort of a philosophy to it. When I see how fertile the soil is, I think it is a shame to add a bunch of stuff to it. In most cases, I don't think I would get better results anyway. If I sense that the soil is sour, I'll add some agricultural limestone, but that's it.

This is the second year in a row I have grown one plant in a garbage heap. That's the closest I come to fertilizing. I just keep adding garbage to the mound every so often - potato peelings, old bananas and/or peelings, watermelon and cantaloupe rinds, left over rice, veggies, beans, bad milk, uprooted weeds, wood ashes, wild mushrooms, termite-eaten logs, whatever. I start off by digging a hole. If I have some old hamburger meat or something that goes in the bottom. Then I layer it with good topsoil, leaves, and miscellaneous refuse. The plant goes in the middle and I add garbage and dirt to the mound every so often. Talk about worms!
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Old July 12, 2009   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simmran1 View Post
When I pull plants in early October and thus have a bare garden I work 1½ pounds of milorganite per 100 sq. feet as well as an entire bale of premium alfalfa. produced failures for me.

It doesn't seem too long ago that Milorganite carried a label that said not to use it on vegetable gardens. Now, on Googling Milorganite, I see that many people are using it on veggies. I don't know, putting what started out as sewer sludge around any edibles just gives me the willies.

I wonder if Milorganite itself is different from what it was. Seems like one of the problems with it, besides the obvious, was a high concentration of heavy metals.
Is anyone else reading this thread using it?

mater
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Old July 12, 2009   #13
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After reading a little about milorganite, it's too controversial for me. It's sort of a hot-button issue on some gardening forums. As one said, "I'm not importing human sludge into my vegetable garden..." I didn't have to read any further.

My addage on all things. "When in doubt, don't." In this case, there's just too many alternatives available for me to try milorganite. As a doctor friend of mine once said..."can you imagine the pathogens that stuff carried..."
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Old July 13, 2009   #14
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TomatoDon,

May I (humbly) recommend a *safe* product called Tomato-tone. I have been thrilled with it for the past several years.



Ray
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Old July 13, 2009   #15
TomatoDon
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Ray...I can always count on the All-Stars to set me straight! Good to see ya again buddy! I was lurking and loafing and decided to jump in again for 09.

I took a little road trip this week-end and picked up a few tomato things. I got some Tomato Tone, which I have used before. I can't find it locally, so I stock up when I find some. I think Feldon swears by Tomato Tone also.

I have to admit though, I didn't know it was in two formulas. I'll have to check to see which one I have.

Thanks Ray, and good to see you again! How are the earth-tainers doing this year?

DS
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