yet another Sun Gold question

[maryinoregon]

I'm growing some F3s. I've saved 12 plants out of the 20 or more I started from seed. They seem to be coming up in miniature. I was wondering if anyone had ever had that happen when playing with Sun Gold.

For those who did not read my original Sun Gold question, here's a synopsis. I grew a Sun Gold start in 2005. In late summer 2006 I found 2-3 little plants growing where I had planted Sun Gold in 2005.

The 2-3 plants I found in mid-September 2006 were little and stayed little. Maybe a foot high. Largest was 1.5 feet or so. All produced approximately marble sized regular Sun Gold colored tomatoes. Tomatoes tasted just like Sun Gold hybrid except they were a bit tart. The taste was not unpleasant. I assumed the plant volunteers did not grow very big because it was mid-September and getting a bit too cold. I assumed the slightly tart taste was there because the weather was getting cooler. I pulled them out and composted them in October. Harvested seeds from all of them.

I wonder if the F3s are miniature because all the other tomato varieties I planted are growing quite nicely. All the tomatoes are in an unheated greenhouse. Some of the stems and on the underside of the leaves are indeed purplish, but we are getting enough sunny days that the greenhouse is holding the day's heat better at night. The Sun Gold F3s are just sitting there. I see no disease. All plants look healthy except for a bit of purple which should fade as it gets sunnier and warmer.

I tried to type anything I thought was of interest. Ask questions if you want. I realize I am not crossing anything here, but this seemed the most sensible place for my question. What you guys have forgotten about tomatoes is probably not worth knowing. Moderators, if I have done wrong, please move this post.

So do you think the S.G.F3s are just recovering from the cold, or maybe I have something interesting?

Thanks.

maryinpnw

[Ruth_10]

For those who did not read my original Sun Gold question, here's a synopsis. I grew a Sun Gold start in 2005. In late summer 2006 I found 2-3 little plants growing where I had planted Sun Gold in 2005.

I guess my question would be can you be sure that Sungold was the parent? I would infer the same thing as you did, but that's not the same as having saved seeds and growing them out. So I guess there are two questions: (1) was Sungold the parent and (2) is what you have tasty or interesting enough to continue on with it, regardless of parentage?

Here's hoping you have the space and time to see what happens with subsequent generations.

[maryinoregon]

Yes, Sun Gold is the parent. The taste was excellent in the F2s, except for the bit of tartness. Like I said, I assumed this was because by the time some were ripe enough, it was mid- September and into October and the days and nights were getting a bit colder. Color was exactly the same as Sun Gold hybrid, but tomatoes obviously smaller.

I was noticing this afternoon when I had a chance to go out and look at my flats that the 12 plants look very much the same too. Wish I knew if it was the cold affecting them, or something else. Well, that should work itself out soon.

I was kind of hoping for something weird going on, just to see what would happen.

[vegomatic]

Hi,

I'm doing about the same thing, only intentionally, on a smaller scale and I started in 2003. One of my F4 plants seems very stunted compared to the long, viney plants I usually get. As a matter of fact, it's still so far behind, I merely potted it up instead of planting it.

Discounting last year, where some of my plants apparently got some herbicide damage, I haven't seen stunted plants from my Sungold growouts till this. So, I won't know till it finally reaches fruit stage what it might produce. I do know I've seen quite a bit of variability in terms of fruit size, color and taste from my previous attempts, but the plants have mostly been pretty similar in appearance.

-Ed

[mouse]

Hi Mary,




Appended below is a partial list of the 'dwarf' plant habit genes stored at the Ricks Germplasm Center, Davis [UC].



The ones in bold green are those that i have been working on for some time along with an 'earliness'/fast cycling factor. i would be most grateful if you would hold on to your seeds and continue your observations, failing which, please consider discarding a few in my direction, should you ever discard your population.



Plant habit, stem and earliness to flower are of great interest to me. Thank you for discovering such a great population.



mouse



http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Genes.html
ant -- aurantia
ant1 Short thick stems; many short side shoots; narrow, rugose, light green pinnae; light orange fruit; colorless pericarp.

br -- brachytic Internodes shortened

bu cin bushy compact inflorescence cin Internodes and inflorescences shortened; long petioles.

bu ab bushy abbreviata fru^ab Internodes and inflorescences shortened; long petioles.

bu cin-2 bushy compact inflorescence 2 cin-2 Internodes and inflorescences shortened; long petioles. Duplicate genes determining character similar to bu.

bu hem bushy hemiglobosa fru^hem Internodes and inflorescences shortened; long petioles. Phenotype like bu except leaves longer, more lax; heterozygote intermediate in some traits.

bu -- bushy fru Internodes and inflorescences shortened; long petioles.


car2 Smaller plant; slender stems; smaller pinnae, nearly entire margin.

cb -- cabbage Compact habit; leaves large and dark green; fewer locules

cd -- condensata Seedling small; internodes shortened; leaf light grey-green with narrow, keeled segments; fruit round and relatively large.

cfa -- conferta
cfa1Very small, compact bush; strongly shortened internodes, young leaves.

cg -- congesta


cg1 Small, dense bush; late growth retardation; short internodes; pointed primary leaves.

coa -- corrotundata
coa1 Plant small; pinnae fewer, broad, rounded, darker; flower parts short and broad. com in

complicataindigainSmall, dainty, nearly unbranched plants; shortened light gray-green leaves.
com -- complicata Smaller, weakly branched erect plant; firm and keeled pinnae. com-2 -- complicata-2com2Very small plant; short leaves, internodes; few side shoots; purplish shoot tips.
cor -- coriacea Smaller, unbranched plant; all parts reduced; short leaves with plicate segments.


ctt -- contracta All shoots somewhat shortened, resulting in round bush habit; pinnae weakly serrated, plicate, and flattened; foliage somewhat lighter, and growing points are somewhat darker.
ctt-2 -- contracta-2 Plant half normal size at flowering; internodes shortened; leaves are narrow, pointed and blistered.


cva -- conversa Small, dense plant; variable fading of foliage. cva-2 -- conversa-2
cva2 Small, compact plant, leaves, pinnae.

cvl -- convoluta
cvl1 Small, dense plant; short internodes; pinnae of oldest leaves involuted.

d -- dwarf rob^imm All parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose.
d x dwarf extreme Extreme dwarf, all parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose; recessive to d and to +. d provx-2
dwarf extreme-2 d^x All parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose.
d provcr-3 dwarf crispata d^cr All parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose. d provcr-2 dwarf crispata d^cr All parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose.
d prov2 dwarf
d All parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose.

d im dwarf
All parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose.

d b dwarf broccoli Extreme dwarf; more stunted than d^x; leaves reduced to small, dark green globs of curled, rugose tissue; flowers reduced, with tiny corolla segments.

d cr dwarf crispata rob^crisp Allele of phenotype intermediate between d and d^x. d-2 –

dwarf-2 rob2, rob II,

d2Shortened internodes and leaves; thick, rugose, bluish gray-green leaves; not allelic with the mimic,d1.d-3–

dwarf-3d3Smaller, sturdy, erect plant; all parts foreshortened; rugose and dark-green leaves.

d-4 -- dwarf-4 d4 Mildly dwarf type; broad, shortened, crowded, darker pinnae; darker flower color.

d-5 -- dwarf-5 d5, d2, M-5 Slow growing plant with normal stem and leaf proportions; semi-sterile; classification good when three weeks old.

d-6--dwarf-6d6, d5Compact and small plant; rugose, and keeled pinnae, upper surface shiny dark green.

d-7 -- dwarf-7 Plants reduced to 10-12 inches tall; short internodes; leaves highly divided with strong anthocyanin.

d-8 -- dwarf-8 Plants reduced to 6-8 inches tall, short internodes; normal flowers but no fruit set in field.

dm -- dwarf modifier d2 Causes extreme dwarfing.

dmt -- diminutiva Shortened plant height and length of stem internodes, leaves, and pinnae.

dpa -- deparca Small seedling and mature plant; little branching; leaf lighter at base, smaller, dark green; strong anthocyanin.

ela--elataPlants reach 3/4 normal size; dense, erect, and bush habit; internodes shortened; leaf segments large, wide, and strongly blistered.

er--erectaDwarf bushy plants with short internodes; shortened dark green leaves; heterozygotes intermediate.



ig -- ignava Dwarf upright, little branched; leaves relatively large, light green.

mun -- multinata
mun1 Small bush; many equal side shoots; short internodes and leaves.

pet -- penetrabile
pet-2, pet2 Plant small, stocky shoots; short internodes and leaves; rugose pinnae; heterozygote intermediate at season's end.

pf -- parviflora Plants reach half normal size; internodes and leaves shortened; leaf segments small, narrow, keeled, dark grey-green; branch tips purplish; flowers smaller, petioles narrow and slightly paler.

psu -- paucisurcata Plant small, almost without branches; internodes and leaves strongly shortened; leaf segments very small, light keeled, dull grey-green; flowers small; fruit set variably low.

pus -- pustulata
pus1Strongly rugose, broad, rounded pinnae; sturdy, erect bush; dark green foliage at all stages

roa -- rotundata
roa1 Small plant; short internodes, leaves; broad, rounded, rugose, light gray-green pinnae.
roa-2 -- rotundata-2 roa2 Rounded, slightly rugose pinnae; shortened leaves

rot -- rotundifolia Short internodes; short, broad, rugose leaves.

rot-2 -- rotundifolia-2 rot2 Small plant; short internodes, sidshoots; small, broad pinnae, nearly round.

rust--rusticaDwarf plants with short internodes; leaves broad, and blunt with fewer segments.

sd -- sundwarf Very short, scarred internodes in high light intensity; heterozygotes usually intermediate.
sd-2 -- sun dwarf-2 Very short, scarred internodes in high light intensity; heterozygotes usually intermediate.
sd-3 -- sun dwarf-3 Interacts with sd-2 and br to yield birdsnest phenotype.

ub -- umbraculiformis Plants attain 2/3 typical size; habit erect; leaves coarser with flatter pinnae; young leaves convex.


vt -- vieta Plants attain 1/3-1/2 size; habit erect with robust main stem and few branches; young pinnae slightly undulated; foliage color normal except yellow-green virescent.

[maryinoregon]

Thank you mouse for all the information. I will print it out and read it again at my leisure, especially when I am looking at my Sun Gold F3s. They are actually growing pretty well at this point. Most of them are at around a foot high now, except for two in really crummy places that will challenge them to the utmost. We have had our usual weird northwest spring weather, only colder than normal. It has been punctuated by a few warm days and one week of 85F. weather. I think the cold was/is the problem, but will continue the observations. If I find anything of interest, you are more than welcome to some seeds. Just remind me.

[vegomatic]

And I'll keep track of mine as well, as I seem to have one or two of these stockier fellers. They aren't very heavy seed producers, some of the Sungold growouts here have had only three to none seeds in a given fruit.

-Ed

[korney19]

Maybe the Sungolds you two are growing out got crossed with a dwarf or determinate you may have grown in the same year?

[maryinoregon]

Hi Mark. In my case, I don't think so. I rarely grow determinates or miniatures and haven't grown either in several years.

As of now, I think they will be regular size plants. For some reason, the F3s just haven't grown as fast.

My neighbors across the fence pretty much stick with Early Girls and Romas and they are at a good distance from my plants.

So we'll see what happens. I appreciate the response. Maybe I will luck out and get some delicious fruits.

[vegomatic]

Here's Sungold from Burpees seed on the left and my Sungold F4 that appears shorter, mainly the distance between leaf branches is less.

Since I didn't take a lot of precautions, it's possible it was crossed with an unnamed wild tomato from Peru.

-Ed

[korney19]

If you's get your nose "up-close" with the plants, do they really stink, like the F1?

[vegomatic]

Interesting, Korney! I'd never thought of using smell as an identifier.

My F1 has that typical mildly pungent tomato plant smell. I have other varieties that are much stronger, however. The stocky F4 is almost fragrant, actually pleasant smelling.

-Ed

[korney19]

Sungold F1 has a distinct smell, much different than most other tomatoes...

[maryinoregon]

I just went out and sniffed all my F3s. I even picked leaves off and crushed them in my hands. They have a quiet, kind of pleasant smell. As a control, I then went and sniffed some of my other varieties. They have the same smell. So I'm guessing the plants are just too small right now. Or it may be the weather has just been too cool. The good news is that all plants are healthy.

[vegomatic]

There's more variation in odor than I'd noticed before. Sandy thinks it's hilarious you guys have me out sniffing tomato plants in 90 degree heat! lol

Here's another comparison pic between my F2 and F4. The F4 is definitely shorter and bushier and the stem seems thicker as well. Too bad no fruitset yet, but hopefully soon.

-Ed