Advice breeding children's tomatoes

[emcd124]

I've decided to wade into a breeding project for next year. My goal is to breed a set of plants designed for children's school gardens. The children snack on them so the focus is on small cherry, pear or grape tomatoes. I've outlined the following goals:

1. Productivity. With lots of kids around, having tons of fruit is king.
2. Height: Tops off around 4' tall, so the kids can harvest the tomatoes themselves.
3. Interesting colors/variety. I'd eventually like to breed a red, orange, yellow, and GWR cherry, poss some with stripes, that fit the above height and productivity profile.
4. Decent disease resistance. Because it is a school garden and I'm not there every day, a plant that can perform well given some minimal help like straw mulch and watering from below.

Earliness is of course a bonus as we're in Z5 and the season is a tad short. It would be nice for the kids to be able to start eating them in the middle of July. Truthfully taste is a bit lower down on the totem of goals because the kids will eat just about anything. I'm sure I wont be able to help selecting for taste, but I dont have a specific taste target.

I took classes in genetics in high school and college, but my knowledge is a bit academic, a bit out of date, and not focused on tomatoes. I've been reading up on books about home breeding and trying to get informed, but I still dont have a good handle on how many genes control which traits. So to start I was thinking about pairing up varieties that possess as many of the desired traits already as possible.

So, for example, I was thinking of using Ildi as one of my starter parents because it has about the right stature and productivity already. So if I could breed a few different ildi-like plants with different colored fruits we'd be in the zone.

QUESTIONS:
1. What other varieties would you suggest I experiment with? (for stripes I'm looking at using the Bumble Bee strains which also seem to be shorter, though not as prolific. For GWRs options seem to be Green Zebra Cherry, Gr Doctors, Gr Doctors Frosted, Verde Claro. Jaunne Flame seems like a good option for orange trait and productivity, but not height)

2. Any good primers on the plant genetics behind plant height, or even cherry characteristic? For example how hard would it be to breed a good cherry tom by crossing a cherry with a regular size beefsteak?

2b. I've seen some long listings of tomato genes but I cant find all the info on color (epidermis plus fruit) in one place to try to figure out dominance or crossing. Any good resources on that?

Any guidance you can give to point me in the right direction would be appreciated! And if any of you are interested in working together on breeding children's tomatoes I'd be glad for collaborators!

[ScottinAtlanta]

I would sure go with Sungold and train it along a low trellis. It is very vinelike and can be easily trained.

[ContainerTed]

I'll throw in my vote for both Sara's Galapagos (includes a bit of Geography and history) and Matt's Wild Cherry (close to original tomatoes in Andes). Both of these will produce plenty of fruit and, best of all, they taste sweet and smooth. Matt's Wild Cherry gives 1/2" sized fruits and Sara's Galapagos gives 3/4" fruits.

Another possibility might be Tommy Toe Red and Tommy Toe Yellow. Both will deliver lots of 1" cherries with great taste.

Black Cherry and Brown Berry both are fairly good producers of delicious 3/4" cherries.

Dr. Carolyn and Snow White for white(ish) fruits.

Green Doctors Frosted for green and Sungold for Yellow/Orange.

[novel grower]

Just wondering ???? You said "kids will eat just about anything" where do you get kids like that?????

[ginger2778]

Blue ones too?

Marsha

[Tom Wagner]

EMCD,

I am right in the middle of doing copious quantities of OP tomato seed extraction. However you post got me to thinking. I parsed out your questions and comments in quotes and responses from me if you don't mind.

I've decided to wade into a breeding project for next year. My goal is to breed a set of plants designed for children's school gardens. The children snack on them so the focus is on small cherry, pear or grape tomatoes.

Good for you! Breeding is a long term project so I would suggest a sped up rendition of tomato variety development. I am a teacher, albeit a sub, and there needs to be more involvement of breeding endeavors with children. I was already an old hat at age 8.

I've outlined the following goals:
1. Productivity. With lots of kids around, having tons of fruit is king.

I think high numbers of fruits is more important than literal "tons" of fruit. Cherry to salad size is the suggestion here.

2. Height: Tops off around 4' tall, so the kids can harvest the tomatoes themselves.

I might suggest dwarf or determinate prostrate (basket/container) vines. Semi-determinate plants require more detailed breeding schemes.

3. Interesting colors/variety. I'd eventually like to breed a red, orange, yellow, and GWR cherry, poss some with stripes, that fit the above height and productivity profile.

I already have those colors in the height and productivity ranges.

4. Decent disease resistance. Because it is a school garden and I'm not there every day, a plant that can perform well given some minimal help like straw mulch and watering from below.

A bit of early and late blight resistance wouldn't hurt to have with a few parental lines.

Earliness is of course a bonus as we're in Z5 and the season is a tad short. It would be nice for the kids to be able to start eating them in the middle of July.

Earliness is the holy grail here in the Seattle area...so many varieties loaded with green immature fruit have been subjected to heavy rains causing splitting and late blight finishing them off. I have varieties like Betimes Macbeth, Lizzano OP, and others that have finished a month earlier than other varieties

Truthfully taste is a bit lower down on the totem of goals because the kids will eat just about anything. I'm sure I wont be able to help selecting for taste, but I dont have a specific taste target.

Taste is serendipity...great to have and/or explore in the progenies

I took classes in genetics in high school and college, but my knowledge is a bit academic, a bit out of date, and not focused on tomatoes. I've been reading up on books about home breeding and trying to get informed, but I still dont have a good handle on how many genes control which traits. So to start I was thinking about pairing up varieties that possess as many of the desired traits already as possible.

I have never found really good text books for tomato breeding goals. It helps when someone like myself has multiple OP lines...and hybrids and selfing filials recombining the traits desired. That makes it easy to view each parent, each hybrid, and each recombinant in real time...all at once and learn by example.

So, for example, I was thinking of using Ildi as one of my starter parents because it has about the right stature and productivity already. So if I could breed a few different ildi-like plants with different colored fruits we'd be in the zone.

Use what you have and use it for what you want. I could add some additional lines perhaps.

QUESTIONS:
1. What other varieties would you suggest I experiment with? (for stripes I'm looking at using the Bumble Bee strains which also seem to be shorter, though not as prolific. For GWRs options seem to be Green Zebra Cherry, Gr Doctors, Gr Doctors Frosted, Verde Claro. Jaunne Flame seems like a good option for orange trait and productivity, but not height)

I made crosses with Green Zebra Cherry, Verde Claro and Jaunne Flammee...so I could suggest those as OP lines...hybrids of them...and OP segregants. Blues that are shorter are the determinate Blue Dawg, Shadow Boxing, Ma Journee, etc.

2. Any good primers on the plant genetics behind plant height, or even cherry characteristic? For example how hard would it be to breed a good cherry tom by crossing a cherry with a regular size beefsteak?

Too much to cover here in this post...ask away, however, as there are lots of folks chiming in on this. And for creating a new cherry variety using beefsteaks, etc., is doable and has been done with little or no difficulty. I was thinking of brandywine cherry varieties that are becoming more and more available....I used some in hybrids this summer.

2b. I've seen some long listings of tomato genes but I cant find all the info on color (epidermis plus fruit) in one place to try to figure out dominance or crossing. Any good resources on that?

I would and should write up what I know for the layman and hobbyist alike, but too busy as yet to do so.

Any guidance you can give to point me in the right direction would be appreciated!

You made a start...add to your information database as you read posts here and elsewhere. I have my own tatermater forum where I talk about this in some detail.

And if any of you are interested in working together on breeding children's tomatoes I'd be glad for collaborators!

Obviously, I want you to succeed. I could offer already bred varieties, their parents, etc., as a way to get started. I could always use seed of your kids' developments in my continued breeding efforts. Some of your kids may have their interests met early on if some of the preliminaries are done ahead of time.

I could even write up some lesson plans that cover procedures, materials, goals, history, vocabulary, and further reading and research.

Having some ready made crosses and the vertical/horizontal seed development under way could add to the steps of the scientific method as follows:

• Ask a Question
• Do Background Research
• Construct a Hypothesis
• Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
• Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
• Communicate Your Results

The students could read what they are provided by you or others and construct the experiment of looking at and recording what they know about two parent varieties...what they think the hybrid would look like, but urge them to look at the hybrids I provide to prove their hypothesis later in the season. They could also make their own hybrids and follow up the second season but base it on the immediate season to gain confidence.


The germplasm I have already could fill one of those scholastic science materials catalogs! Maybe with a little help I could publish my own materials collection for science students in the K/12 levels. EMCD's example could lead to that.

Tom Wagner

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by emcd124

I've decided to wade into a breeding project for next year. My goal is to breed a set of plants designed for children's school gardens. The children snack on them so the focus is on small cherry, pear or grape tomatoes.

I hope you realize that is is a better part of a decade long project not a one year thing.

I've outlined the following goals:

1. Productivity. With lots of kids around, having tons of fruit is king.
I suspect that a great number of factors go into making a productive tomato:
Number of flowers
Willingness to set in adverse conditions
Ability of plant to supply nutrients to lots of tomatoes
Disease tolerance
2. Height: Tops off around 4' tall, so the kids can harvest the tomatoes themselves.
That sounds like the size of tomatoes the dwarf project is producing. I'd read every last post in that sub forum. Most if not all of them are dwarf indeterminates.
3. Interesting colors/variety. I'd eventually like to breed a red, orange, yellow, and GWR cherry, poss some with stripes, that fit the above height and productivity profile.
4. Decent disease resistance. Because it is a school garden and I'm not there every day, a plant that can perform well given some minimal help like straw mulch and watering from below.
Lot's of people are working on disease tolerance.

Earliness is of course a bonus as we're in Z5 and the season is a tad short. It would be nice for the kids to be able to start eating them in the middle of July. Truthfully taste is a bit lower down on the totem of goals because the kids will eat just about anything. I'm sure I wont be able to help selecting for taste, but I dont have a specific taste target.

What kind of school that has kids all summer?

I took classes in genetics in high school and college, but my knowledge is a bit academic, a bit out of date, and not focused on tomatoes. I've been reading up on books about home breeding and trying to get informed, but I still dont have a good handle on how many genes control which traits. So to start I was thinking about pairing up varieties that possess as many of the desired traits already as possible.

So, for example, I was thinking of using Ildi as one of my starter parents because it has about the right stature and productivity already. So if I could breed a few different ildi-like plants with different colored fruits we'd be in the zone.

QUESTIONS:
1. What other varieties would you suggest I experiment with? (for stripes I'm looking at using the Bumble Bee strains which also seem to be shorter, though not as prolific. For GWRs options seem to be Green Zebra Cherry, Gr Doctors, Gr Doctors Frosted, Verde Claro. Jaunne Flame seems like a good option for orange trait and productivity, but not height)

2. Any good primers on the plant genetics behind plant height, or even cherry characteristic? For example how hard would it be to breed a good cherry tom by crossing a cherry with a regular size beefsteak?

2b. I've seen some long listings of tomato genes but I cant find all the info on color (epidermis plus fruit) in one place to try to figure out dominance or crossing. Any good resources on that?

Any guidance you can give to point me in the right direction would be appreciated! And if any of you are interested in working together on breeding children's tomatoes I'd be glad for collaborators!

As I said above I'd read through all the dwarf project postings as that is the size tomato you are talking about.

Next I'd go Tatianna's and go here
http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...egory:Tomatoes
and search under cherry tomatoes to see what already exists. There are 498 listed.
Look for one of two terms, compact indeterminate or dwarf indeterminate.

For example
http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...een_Bumble_Bee is listed as a compact indeterminate. It would be work growing some to see if it fits your needs.


As far as crossing a cherry and a beefsteak I think the F1 generation would e all cherry. The F2 generation would be 3 cherry for every beefsteak.

[travis]

Go to Johnny's Selected Seeds http://www.johnnyseeds.com/c-52-tomatoes.aspx Tomato Pages.

They have several determinate varieties of cherry and grape tomatoes. Some are open pollinated and some are hybrids.

Husky Red Cherry is another variety you might consider. It's a 4-foot dwarf that produces very well.

[ContainerTed]

If you have access to some sunny window ledges, then try Tiny Tim and Pinocchio miniature dwarfs. The taste is really good on both if the fruit (small cherries) is fully ripe. These two could be started now and produce all winter long.

There are others that are as small that have the taste you're looking for. Clara, here on TVille, raises a lot of these super small tomato plants. Maybe she will add some insight.

[clkeiper]

Truthfully, taste will matter to the kids. If it doesn't taste good enough to want it again they will lose interest in the project. My children (all teens or young adults) are very particular about the flavor of the garden produce. If it doesn't taste good they leave it. I have a friend of my daughter who doesn't like tomatoes...those things from the store just ruin the experience for everyone. I got her to try the two dwarf project tomatoes that I am growing this year and a few I got from other sources and she LIKED them. there was only one tomato that she wasn't willing to try again. I give samples away all the time at my markets and roadside stand. If the kid won't eat it there they will have no desire to eat it at home either and that isn't the thought I want to plant in their minds that garden food is gross. Almost all the above mentioned cherry tomatoes mentioned above I have grown and have been tasty tomatoes for eating.

[emcd124]

Wow! Thanks for all the responses.

Carolyn: Good point of course. I know taste matters, I suppose I rank taste last not because I'm eager to produce terrible tasting tomatoes, but because taste is subjective, and I have no particular taste goal (eg producing a citrusy taste) and I think one can't help but reflexively weed out bad tasting ones. But for example though most tomatophiles on here think yellow pears are spitters, the kids love them and can't get enough. This summer I put out a cherokee green grape, a reisenstraube, and a yellow volunteer and they combed over every bit of those tomatoes such that the teachers had to ration the kids to one tomato per kid per outside session. I've been bringing bags in from home to supplement their supply.

It is a montessori 3-6 year old classroom with year round programming, so they are still in session over the summer.

I spent some time poring over the tomatobase before posting this, but many of the dwarfs seem to be VERY small, around 12" and with limited garden space it seemed like a 12" plant couldnt really compete with the productivity of a 48" plant for the same amount of horizontal real estate. I pulled out a few dwarf varieties listed in the 36-48" range, but as far as I can tell from search the t'base, most of them do not also have high productivity and color range. I admit I did this by searching rather than manually sorting all 498 varieties.

Doug: I appreciate the warning. I know that breeding can be a long term endeavor, but I figure nothing gets done if you dont start, so might as well start sooner than later. I've read through a couple tomato breeding books and I think I'm going to take a mid range approach of starting with parents with as many of the desired characteristics as possible. Crossing them with some good humor and a willingness to eat my way through mishaps and mistakes. maybe we get lucky. And as the first goal is breeding for local use, we dont mind if we have to eat our way through some F1 and F2 generations, we dont need a fully stable line to enjoy the literal fruits of my/our labor.

Tom: Wow! thanks for the thoughtful response, especially from a breeding rockstar like yourself! I'll respond to you point by point:
You are correct that I meant the target was a large quantity rather than a large weight. My goof.
I didnt know that dwarf or prostrate were easier to breed than semi-dets. Thanks for the tip!
If you have those colors in the height and productivity ranges I would be really eager to grow them out or trial them for you if you are game to share!

Yes, their garden seems to have trouble with septoria and early blight. We havent had trouble with late blight thankfully. But because the garden is swarming with kids touching everything and exploring, you can't exactly practice pristine garden hygiene, so the plants need to be able to tough it out a bit.

I hadnt thought much about teaching the kids breeding because I didnt think they'd have the patience to wait from one year to the next to see the results, but if I understand your proposal correctly, it would be to simultaneously grow out both parental lines and one of the F1 crosses side by side in the same garden so the kids could compare. That is an incredible idea!! And the school garden would be more than glad to grow out and share back. If you go so far as to want to develop a K12 garden curriculum I could talk to the teachers about getting photo releases so we could document the kids enacting the projects at the school and you could have a ready set of art to go with your text.

As I mentioned above the school I am working with now is a 3-6 year old Montessori classroom, but montessori is VERY into the idea of the materials instructing the children, children learning by doing, which is very amenable to the scientific method. I was wanting to put together a garden curriculum for the kids that I would run once a week next year. Something simple for littlest children, that involves simple observations (the differences between potato leaf and RL leaves) graduating up to learning the parts of the flower. the kindergarteners help plant and plan the garden and could do a simplified version of the sci method that essentially focused on them observing and recording and analyzing the parental v F1 characteristics over the course of the summer, kids pooling their observations in a chart to track each F1 plants characteristics and progress. I'm sure as my son moves on to the local K-8 Montessori I will likely bring the garden approach with me there and see how it can grow.

If you want to put together a garden curriculum I would be more than game to help out with that. I'm a university professor so I dont have much experience with K12 education, but I have a general orientation to teaching and a bucket of enthusiasm for the project, so I'd be glad to help however possible.