Grafting curvy crooked seedlings

b54red · February 13, 2020

It is nearly time to start grafting again this year. My seedlings look terrible for grafting. They are leggy and twisted with very thin stems for their height. I guess the weather with rain 3 or 4 days out of every week for the past few weeks has really done a number on them. We have had very few sunny bright days so the light in the greenhouse has been less than sufficient for sturdy plants. I thought they were ready to start grafting today but after trying a half dozen I realized the stems were just too flimsy and thin to be handled and only my smallest grafting clip would work on any of them. I have tried putting them outside, a fan running on them and constantly turning the flats but nothing seems to be working in straightening out the seedlings. I fear my success rate may be pitiful with these curvy plants. I already have some new ones coming up but they will be much later being ready to graft so I will try to work with what I have until hopefully my later seedlings are up and ready and straighter.

This year is starting out a bit strange in the greenhouse. My bell peppers which were planted before my tomatoes are only about an inch tall while my tomatoes are 5 times that height but so thin it is impossible to work with them yet. Last year my bell peppers were as tall as my tomatoes by this time and it was my best year ever for bell peppers. Maybe that is a hint that this won't be one of the best pepper years or maybe they just need some more sunshine.

Has anyone else started grafting yet?

Bill

Father'sDaughter · February 13, 2020

Too early to start here, but I have everything ready to go for next month. Last year my grafts all failed after I had them to where the humidity dome was being removed for a few minutes each day, and one day I failed to get them covered back up soon enough. They never recovered from their wilting... I restarted all my scion seeds and because it was so late planted them on their own roots. Production was pretty pathetic except for the two cherries. It did give me another chance, however, to observe them and I saw none of the previous years' bright yellowing of leaves that had me suspecting F, but saw plenty of evidence of V.

I hope you get more light/sun for your second round. Doesn't sound like your first planting will be viable for grafting.

jtjmartin · February 13, 2020

Has anyone else started grafting yet?

I start sowing for grafting this weekend!

Jeff

zendog · February 13, 2020

I was going to start my grafting seedlings this weekend as well. I think last year I started my scion seedlings 3 or 4 days before my rootstocks hoping to get a better match from some of the less vigorous heirlooms. That basically worked out, but I'm not sure if it made much difference in the end. Do others start their scions before rootstocks?

jtjmartin · February 13, 2020

Because I have a lot more scion seeds than rootstock, I always sow scion seeds before, during and after any rootstock seeds.

Jeff

b54red · February 17, 2020

I always start my scions first. It is much easier to find a place to graft onto a smaller root stock from a larger scion. There isn't a limit as to how high up on the seedling you take your cutting for the scion but it can get very difficult to graft onto a larger root stock. There is also the limitation of how tall my healing chamber is.

Some of those grafts that I did a week ago seem to be taking even though the stems were so tiny. I had to use clips of 1.5 mm and even some of the stems were still too thin. More rain yesterday and more forecast for tomorrow so I guess I am just going to have to deal with crooked stalks on my scions. Many of my root stock seedlings are fairly straight. I don't know why that is.

Bill

jtjmartin · February 17, 2020

My first scion seeds were planted yesterday!

I usually try to plant a number of "new to me" tomatoes; this year I'm sticking to my "greatest hits" list: ISPL, Not Chocolate Stripes, Black Cherry, Pink Princess, SunGold, GGWT, Red Barn, etc. in so far.

Jeff

b54red · February 22, 2020

In the past week I have managed to find enough seedlings with stalks thick enough to graft to graft about 40 plants. Out of all of them none have been large enough to use a clip over 1.7mm yet. I haven't actually counted how many I have done but one of the first seven totally failed and I will have to wait to see how all the others turn out. I was out checking to see if any more seedlings were large enough this morning and there were a few but I'm not sure if I will try to graft them today or wait and see if there are more ready tomorrow.

Bill

b54red · March 4, 2020

The first two batches of close to 40 tomato plants had a very good success rate so I went ahead and found another 20 or so to do another large batch like my second batch. My success rate took a hit on the last batch as it was fairly hot in the greenhouse the day I grafted but it rained the next so I thought I would be alright but when it was time to crack the lids it was 80 for two days in a row and the grafts suffered. Of course it started raining again but it was too late to help the ones that wilted badly. It looks like I will lose about half that batch.

I'm hoping my next batch of scions will get big enough to graft before it gets hot again. They are about 2 to 3 inches tall now and still too small for even my smallest grafting clips. Maybe I can start in a day or two.

I am very happy with the results of my first grafting sessions this season and it will give me plenty of plants for my first tomato planting. I will be giving half the plants away because I have too many duplicates and would like to grow a bit more variety this year than last season. I have some new varieties to try and if I plant too many of the same variety early I will not have room for all the varieties I would like to try and I need to set out at least two each of all the new ones to give them a chance with all the tomato plagues that affect this area most years.

Bill

b54red · March 12, 2020

I have 25 grafted plants re-potted in regular potting mix and outside hardening off. They should be ready to hit the garden in 10 to 14 days or maybe quicker if they keep growing like they are. I have another 30 or 40 left to re-pot in the next few days.

My next batch of scions to be grafted are only about an inch tall but with the hot weather and sunshine we are having right now they may be large enough to start grafting before too long.

Bill

Father'sDaughter · April 6, 2020

Made my 20 grafts last night and they are all tucked in under the humidity dome with a towel over the top. I have four more rootstock that germinated late so may try a few more in another week. I only need a little more than half of them to make it for my planting, then I'll offer up extras to a few neighbors who have or are starting gardens.

Last year I lost all but one grafted plant and had to go with tomatoes on their own roots. While most hung in long enough for some low to medium production, several went down fast after ripening one or two tomatoes.

The standouts were once again the Dwarf varieties I grew. So far they don't seem to be as bothered by disease and this year the rest of my tomato space is going to Dwarf varieties.

zendog · April 7, 2020

I'm curious what people are using for a healing schedule. Even though I've generally had very good success rates grafting, I just haven't been very good at keeping notes and I found I can do more damage babying them too long. I use a 10x20 tray with one of those high humidity domes.

I think I'm going with the following:

2 days humidity cover sealed and in a dark room - today is currently the last day of this part.

1 day humidity cover in a room with some light and the top vents open - I'll keep an eye on this to make sure nothing starts wilting too much.

1 day humidity cover vents open and in a well-lit room (diffuse light from nearby windows), plus 1 hour under the lights.

1 day humidity cover vents open and bottom edge propped up a half-inch with 2 2-hour periods under lights.

And then I'll see how they're doing and probably start the full day under lights with top propped open. I usually just put pencils in under the edge to raise it about 1/4 inch all the way around the bottom edge where it hits the tray.

The first year I kept them in the dark and covered for 3 days and started to get roots coming from the scions on several plants, plus a little mildew or fungus on some leaves. I've also been just taking the cover off completely for a few seconds each day to get a good exchange of air.

Thoughts? Is this too aggressive?

Father'sDaughter · April 7, 2020

My schedule is based on Bill's excellent posts in the older grafting threads. Like him, I use pre-moistened coarse DE (Opti Sorb) and remove most of the roots from the rootstock seedlings when I graft. Here's the timeline:

Close the chamber and put it in a shady place (or cover with a towel) in a room that is not too hot.

After at least 24 hours, start cracking open the lid daily for about 5 minutes to allow in some fresh air for the next few days. Mist the inside of the lid with water to maintain humidity as needed or if plants start to wilt. Do not mist plants themselves.

If plants are not wilting, after 5-7 days, slightly crack open the lid for a day or two. If at any time they begin to wilt, mist lid well and close completely for another day or two, then try cracking the lid again.

Once no additional wilting is observed with the lid cracked open, completely remove the lid, give the plants a drink of diluted Fertilizer and place the tray where it gets good indirect light.

b54red · April 11, 2020

Quote:

Originally Posted by Father'sDaughter

My schedule is based on Bill's excellent posts in the older grafting threads. Like him, I use pre-moistened coarse DE (Opti Sorb) and remove most of the roots from the rootstock seedlings when I graft. Here's the timeline:

Close the chamber and put it in a shady place (or cover with a towel) in a room that is not too hot.

After at least 24 hours, start cracking open the lid daily for about 5 minutes to allow in some fresh air for the next few days. Mist the inside of the lid with water to maintain humidity as needed or if plants start to wilt. Do not mist plants themselves.

If plants are not wilting, after 5-7 days, slightly crack open the lid for a day or two. If at any time they begin to wilt, mist lid well and close completely for another day or two, then try cracking the lid again.

Once no additional wilting is observed with the lid cracked open, completely remove the lid, give the plants a drink of diluted Fertilizer and place the tray where it gets good indirect light.

I am having better results this year so far in my grafting. Since we had a very warm late March I decided to try moving my healing chamber immediately inside our house upon finishing my grafting, where it is usually kept slightly below 70 degrees, and leave them in there for the first five days at least of the healing process. This has definitely improved my results along with a few other minor tweaks. The greenhouse has just been too hot for healing as it was last year. I just had no idea last year that it affected the process so negatively.

The other tweaks I have made is only grafting in the very early morning when the temperatures are cool so that the grafted plants don't have a chance to wilt from the heat before they are moved into the house. Always watering the scions just before beginning the grafting process. Trying to graft before the seedlings get too large as I have found the younger the plants grafted the better they seem to heal although handling the tiny stems can be a problem with my now slightly shaky and arthritic fingers.

I have now got way more than I or my friends will need of grafted plants for the nest month or so and am debating with myself whether to start any more seedlings for fall tomatoes or just hope enough of these will last into late fall down here. The main reason I am reluctant to start more seed is how short and mild our winter was this past year when I only had to cover my winter crops six nights due to the cold. This worries me because I have had my plants hit with TYLCV two falls after warm winters the previous year and this was as warm or warmer than those winters. I hate to go to all the trouble of starting and grafting enough plants in the heat of early summer to have the resulting grafted plants ruined by TYLCV just as they are starting to set fruit. I may just do enough for a very small planting and hope for the best.

Good luck to those of you that are grafting this year.

Bill

Father'sDaughter · April 11, 2020

While this is only my third year grafting, I would agree that the younger they are when done, the better. I thought I was grafting them too soon the first year because they were so tiny, but I think I only lost 1 or 2 that year and they sailed through the healing stage.

Last year life got in the way and I made my grafts with larger seedlings. They struggled through a longer healing period and just when it looked like they were going to make it, leaving the dome off for a bit to long combined with a nearby open window did every single one of them in almost immediately.

This year I went back to grafting them as much smaller babies and six days in they're staying nice and perky right through the daily airings.

Since we're still in our heating season, I try to do them in the evening as the thermostat bumps down to the lower 60's overnight. Usually it would also bump down during the day while we're at work, but not this year...

February 13, 2020	#1
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	Grafting curvy crooked seedlings It is nearly time to start grafting again this year. My seedlings look terrible for grafting. They are leggy and twisted with very thin stems for their height. I guess the weather with rain 3 or 4 days out of every week for the past few weeks has really done a number on them. We have had very few sunny bright days so the light in the greenhouse has been less than sufficient for sturdy plants. I thought they were ready to start grafting today but after trying a half dozen I realized the stems were just too flimsy and thin to be handled and only my smallest grafting clip would work on any of them. I have tried putting them outside, a fan running on them and constantly turning the flats but nothing seems to be working in straightening out the seedlings. I fear my success rate may be pitiful with these curvy plants. I already have some new ones coming up but they will be much later being ready to graft so I will try to work with what I have until hopefully my later seedlings are up and ready and straighter. This year is starting out a bit strange in the greenhouse. My bell peppers which were planted before my tomatoes are only about an inch tall while my tomatoes are 5 times that height but so thin it is impossible to work with them yet. Last year my bell peppers were as tall as my tomatoes by this time and it was my best year ever for bell peppers. Maybe that is a hint that this won't be one of the best pepper years or maybe they just need some more sunshine. Has anyone else started grafting yet? Bill

February 13, 2020	#2
Father'sDaughter Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: MA/NH Border Posts: 4,917	Too early to start here, but I have everything ready to go for next month. Last year my grafts all failed after I had them to where the humidity dome was being removed for a few minutes each day, and one day I failed to get them covered back up soon enough. They never recovered from their wilting... I restarted all my scion seeds and because it was so late planted them on their own roots. Production was pretty pathetic except for the two cherries. It did give me another chance, however, to observe them and I saw none of the previous years' bright yellowing of leaves that had me suspecting F, but saw plenty of evidence of V. I hope you get more light/sun for your second round. Doesn't sound like your first planting will be viable for grafting.

February 13, 2020	#3
jtjmartin Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2016 Location: Williamsburg VA Zone 7b Posts: 1,110	Has anyone else started grafting yet? I start sowing for grafting this weekend! Jeff

February 13, 2020	#4
zendog Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: VA-7a Posts: 121	I was going to start my grafting seedlings this weekend as well. I think last year I started my scion seedlings 3 or 4 days before my rootstocks hoping to get a better match from some of the less vigorous heirlooms. That basically worked out, but I'm not sure if it made much difference in the end. Do others start their scions before rootstocks?

February 17, 2020	#6
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	I always start my scions first. It is much easier to find a place to graft onto a smaller root stock from a larger scion. There isn't a limit as to how high up on the seedling you take your cutting for the scion but it can get very difficult to graft onto a larger root stock. There is also the limitation of how tall my healing chamber is. Some of those grafts that I did a week ago seem to be taking even though the stems were so tiny. I had to use clips of 1.5 mm and even some of the stems were still too thin. More rain yesterday and more forecast for tomorrow so I guess I am just going to have to deal with crooked stalks on my scions. Many of my root stock seedlings are fairly straight. I don't know why that is. Bill

February 22, 2020	#8
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	In the past week I have managed to find enough seedlings with stalks thick enough to graft to graft about 40 plants. Out of all of them none have been large enough to use a clip over 1.7mm yet. I haven't actually counted how many I have done but one of the first seven totally failed and I will have to wait to see how all the others turn out. I was out checking to see if any more seedlings were large enough this morning and there were a few but I'm not sure if I will try to graft them today or wait and see if there are more ready tomorrow. Bill

March 4, 2020	#9
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	The first two batches of close to 40 tomato plants had a very good success rate so I went ahead and found another 20 or so to do another large batch like my second batch. My success rate took a hit on the last batch as it was fairly hot in the greenhouse the day I grafted but it rained the next so I thought I would be alright but when it was time to crack the lids it was 80 for two days in a row and the grafts suffered. Of course it started raining again but it was too late to help the ones that wilted badly. It looks like I will lose about half that batch. I'm hoping my next batch of scions will get big enough to graft before it gets hot again. They are about 2 to 3 inches tall now and still too small for even my smallest grafting clips. Maybe I can start in a day or two. I am very happy with the results of my first grafting sessions this season and it will give me plenty of plants for my first tomato planting. I will be giving half the plants away because I have too many duplicates and would like to grow a bit more variety this year than last season. I have some new varieties to try and if I plant too many of the same variety early I will not have room for all the varieties I would like to try and I need to set out at least two each of all the new ones to give them a chance with all the tomato plagues that affect this area most years. Bill

March 12, 2020	#10
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	I have 25 grafted plants re-potted in regular potting mix and outside hardening off. They should be ready to hit the garden in 10 to 14 days or maybe quicker if they keep growing like they are. I have another 30 or 40 left to re-pot in the next few days. My next batch of scions to be grafted are only about an inch tall but with the hot weather and sunshine we are having right now they may be large enough to start grafting before too long. Bill

April 6, 2020	#11
Father'sDaughter Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: MA/NH Border Posts: 4,917	Made my 20 grafts last night and they are all tucked in under the humidity dome with a towel over the top. I have four more rootstock that germinated late so may try a few more in another week. I only need a little more than half of them to make it for my planting, then I'll offer up extras to a few neighbors who have or are starting gardens. Last year I lost all but one grafted plant and had to go with tomatoes on their own roots. While most hung in long enough for some low to medium production, several went down fast after ripening one or two tomatoes. The standouts were once again the Dwarf varieties I grew. So far they don't seem to be as bothered by disease and this year the rest of my tomato space is going to Dwarf varieties.

April 7, 2020	#12
zendog Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: VA-7a Posts: 121	I'm curious what people are using for a healing schedule. Even though I've generally had very good success rates grafting, I just haven't been very good at keeping notes and I found I can do more damage babying them too long. I use a 10x20 tray with one of those high humidity domes. I think I'm going with the following: 2 days humidity cover sealed and in a dark room - today is currently the last day of this part. 1 day humidity cover in a room with some light and the top vents open - I'll keep an eye on this to make sure nothing starts wilting too much. 1 day humidity cover vents open and in a well-lit room (diffuse light from nearby windows), plus 1 hour under the lights. 1 day humidity cover vents open and bottom edge propped up a half-inch with 2 2-hour periods under lights. And then I'll see how they're doing and probably start the full day under lights with top propped open. I usually just put pencils in under the edge to raise it about 1/4 inch all the way around the bottom edge where it hits the tray. The first year I kept them in the dark and covered for 3 days and started to get roots coming from the scions on several plants, plus a little mildew or fungus on some leaves. I've also been just taking the cover off completely for a few seconds each day to get a good exchange of air. Thoughts? Is this too aggressive?

April 11, 2020	#15
Father'sDaughter Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: MA/NH Border Posts: 4,917	While this is only my third year grafting, I would agree that the younger they are when done, the better. I thought I was grafting them too soon the first year because they were so tiny, but I think I only lost 1 or 2 that year and they sailed through the healing stage. Last year life got in the way and I made my grafts with larger seedlings. They struggled through a longer healing period and just when it looked like they were going to make it, leaving the dome off for a bit to long combined with a nearby open window did every single one of them in almost immediately. This year I went back to grafting them as much smaller babies and six days in they're staying nice and perky right through the daily airings. Since we're still in our heating season, I try to do them in the evening as the thermostat bumps down to the lower 60's overnight. Usually it would also bump down during the day while we're at work, but not this year...