Info on the Crimson gene

[doublehelix]

I am really interested in working with seedlines that have the crimson gene. One variety that I saw was Spitfire but I can only find one source. Can anyone offer some varieties that have the crimson gene? Also any advice about this pursuit would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[dice]

Search for Kanatto in the page at the URL below. Just below it
is a mention of High Crimson and Early High Crimson. At one
time this vendor (still in business?) mentioned that he could not
or would not ship seeds to the US. Maybe one of our Canadian
members can act as a middleman for you if that is still the case
and if he still markets seeds.

http://www.prseeds.ca/catalogue/tomato.php?C=Tomato

If you can find an online SSE catalog (.pdf), you could search
it for "crimson" and see if you find any variety names.

[doublehelix]

Thanks a bunch. Any and all info I can get is appreciated.

[dice]

Note: "Crimson Cushion" is probably a false lead (alternate name
for Red Ponderosa; its development predates most or all dna
research on tomatoes).

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by original

Thanks a bunch. Any and all info I can get is appreciated.

I've grown High Crimson and the petals are interesting b'c they have a gold stripe on them, but my seeds are old and while they're in my home I don't know where they are. And I'jm not too sure you want to fool around with very old seeds anyway/

I think I remember one other person here at Tville that i sent some seeds to a few years back and I could ask her if she grew them out and if she has fresher seeds.

At one time I was listing High Crimson in the SSE YEarbooks. Dice has suggested that you look at the pdf SSE listings, it's not a catalog b'c only SSE members have access to the about 4,000 tomato varieties there, but I can tell you that both Early High Crimson and High Crimson are both listed in the 2010 SSE YEarbook, one source for each variety.

And in case I can't remember the eprson to whom I sent those High Crimson seeds to you might want to go to the Seed Exchange Forum in the Seeds Wanted Subforum, summarize the info you've been given here, you can even link this thread in that request, and see if anyone has any fresh seeds of what's been mentioned here.

May I ask why you want to work with the crimson gene?

I'm asking b'c yes, it does impart a deeper red color to the fruits but the info about possible higher lycopene concentrations varies in different studies and there are many other high lycopene varieties around.

The following general Google Search for tomato crimson gene may be of interest to you>

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...AAAKoEBU_Qvs2C

[doublehelix]

The short answer is that I'm a contrarian. The long answer would probably require a few bottles of wine and an entire evening to explain.

Basically I am interested in both the color that crimson imparts and also the increased levels of lycopene. I wasn't aware that there was any controversy over lycopene inheritance, but the ol' scientist inside wants to see for himself. The crimson gene is just one of several things I am interested in. Since there are only a handful of places that are breeding tomatoes, I doubt that enough divergent avenues of breeding are taking place. It has been my observation that most commercial hybridization programs, including academia, only work towards a product that is easy to harvest, ships well, keeps well, etc. I do realize that there are several people working on increased nutritional qualities. But, an ugly or malformed fruit within an Fx segregation is not going to be pursued no matter how good the taste. A lot of the amateur breeders are mostly interested in what is popular at the moment or only breeding novelties. I sort of want to be somewhere in the middle.

I don't really have much of an agenda other than I love the science and I love tomatoes. I suppose I'm just doing this for myself and if something good comes from it then I can share it with other people.

Did any of that make sense?

[dice]

Results of a study on lycopene, beta carotene, Vitamin C,
sugar, and nitrate levels in 10 cultivars:
http://www.lzi.lt/tomai/96(3)tomas/96_3_tomas_67_75.pdf

The only one I have heard of before is Vilina, which is mentioned
elsewhere as having late blight tolerance. I grew it last year,
it tasted like a commercial tomato to me (bland). Grunt reported
that the high heat of mid-summer seemed to be ignored by
Vilina when he grew it in S.E. British Columbia.

(Since it was bland and kind of small but had some good
features, I crossed it with Dolly Parton. I have an F1 growing
but have not tasted it yet. Both are RL, but I can tell by the
size and shape of the fruit on it that the cross took, so I
will have F2 seeds.)

[doublehelix]

Dice, thanks for your post.

It looks like most of the varieties with "crimson" in the title have nothing to do with the plants genetics.

As I said earlier, it is the "science" of hybridizing that I get a thrill out of so perhaps other avenues should be explored.

Maybe I should start with seed availability and figure out what I would like to hybridize instead of looking at phenotypes and trying to find seed. I would really like to work with obscure varieties that are not involved in others work. Is there anyone that has not tried Brandywine X ___(fill in the blank)? I mostly want to avoid the bottlenecking that tends to happen when just a few varieties are used as breeding stock. I've seen this happen with other plant breeding programs where everyone wants to have the next big thing that is almost like the last big thing. Seriously, what is the point in that? I suppose you could say the current music industry operates with the same mentality.

...hmmm...rethinking...

[Tom Wagner]

As a breeder of tomatoes, high lycopene has been one of my goals of converting tomatoes into something they weren't. My first release of a high lycopene line was my Jiarg variety in 1983. But folks simply were not interested in the most red tomatoes; people gravitated to odd colors of my breeding lines rather than conventional types. Jiarg has Ontario lines such as Ont777 or Ont781 in the pedigree.

I have used Florida lines with high lycopene also to breed to other heirloom types but most of those are not available. I had at least one released in Holland a number of years ago and that is a popular large cherry type.

I have hundreds of selfing lines that I have not grown a lot of simply because there is no place to put them. I recognize the lines because of the og gene has petals of an old yellow color. I will likely repeat myself later, but the gene og is small caps, therefore it is recessive.

Technical knowledge is important if one wants to get into breeding seriously. That is why I am including the following....

Allele: c Allele name: crimson Synonym of Allele: og^c,Crn,Cr,crn-2,cr-2 Mutant type: SPON Phenotype: Increased fruit lycopene content; phenotype similar to B^og. Notes: Discovered in a Phillipine variety. Null allele of B.

Bc
crimson
ogc
color/
nutrition

Increased fruit lycopene content; phenotype similar to Bog.
a , bBog
old gold
og
color/
nutrition

Corolla tawny orange; increased fruit lycopene
flower
Source of 'old gold' mutation bred into L. esuclentum. S. chilense LA0294 Derived from Goodspeed collection, & selected backcrossed to Pearson;
Collection Notes: Homozygous og/og, gene heterozygous in clone from Goodspeed

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Images/og.jpg
og.jpg - Flowers of normal (+)left versus og two on right (old gold; LA0348). [photo C.M. Rick].

Tasti-Lee, a tomato being test marketed in a number of locations is a hybrid that carries the crimson gene from both parents. As a hybrid, it has to homozygous for the og gene in order to high lycopene. I notice in the pedigree of Tasti-Lee that this hybrid goes back 37 generations of crossing and selfing to Suncoast, an OP variety that is high lycopene. I have used Suncoast for years and it is almost a 'camp' tomato for organic growers. Suncoast was released in 1985.

Suncoast has Purdue Crimson as a g. grandparent. This is the source of its high lycopene. Note the pedigree here...http://tgc.ifas.ufl.edu/vol35/35p62f.gif

Suncoast has a vine with erect foliage. Erect foliage is recessive. I get rid of this erect vine when I use Suncoast in a hybrid.

The high lycopene lines ....internal flesh and locule color was deep red, typical of tomatoes with the og' gene. The deeper red color of the crimson gene fruit was the result of higher lycopcne levels. Lycopene increases most high lycopene lines were from 15.9% and 56.6% higher than standard lines.

I had guests looking at a couple hundred of my exclusive varieties today and I told them about putting the Blue P-20 together with high lycopene to get a more nutritious tomato...very blue on the outside but very red on the inside.

One of my guests in already posting on Twitter that the colors of my tomatoes and potatoes is an overload. Here is a link to a tomato that is 3/4 P-20 Blue..and it has about 100 fruit on the vine..however his photo shows only one truss and a lot of horse tail..... http://twitpic.com/2m6vss


Tom Wagner

[travis]

Originally Posted by original

Since there are only a handful of places that are breeding tomatoes, I doubt that enough divergent avenues of breeding are taking place.

It has been my observation that most commercial hybridization programs, including academia, only work towards a product that is easy to harvest, ships well, keeps well, etc.

I do realize that there are several people working on increased nutritional qualities. But, an ugly or malformed fruit within an Fx segregation is not going to be pursued no matter how good the taste.

A lot of the amateur breeders are mostly interested in what is popular at the moment or only breeding novelties.

I may risk appearing judgmental, but have to say, you appear to be operating under several very generalized and not necessarily accurate assumptions about both commercial and amateur tomato breeders.

But go ahead with your work. I'd suggest you explore some of Randy Gardner's high crimson lines which, while they are commercial products that are bred for ease of harvest and ability toward long keeping and to withstand shipping, also carry the crimson gene along with other interesting and beneficial genetics. Might even be something in there to repair "ugly" while enhancing "crimson" in whatever lines you're pursuing.

And if you're wanting an open pollinated parent, you might also explore using Juane Flamme which, while not "high crimson," has tested highest among the readily available heirloom types for beta carotene.

[Tom Wagner]

I do have a long list of tomato lines from Randy Gardner, in fact I have bred most of them into quite a diverse group of lines that can best be called Mountain Series West. I have lines that were bred for California and now for the PNW.

As for Juane Flamme, I have 'worked' this variety into a series of lines that even yesterday have my guests taking notice. My Flaming Juane is an F-4 from the original cross of Juane Flamme and Beyond Verde Claro.
It is a tiny cherry gold that has a slight grape shape that wows most folks for flavor. Very productive in the greeenhouse. Another one they like from the same origin is Flamboyant, a round gold cherry. The folks yesterday were growers, chefs, and restaurant owners that are on the quest for high flavored local tomatoes. Imagine going to a restaurant where the meal lasts for 5 hours......these are those folks to do that.

One hybrid that these sames folks were impressed with is a hybrid between one of my rin dwarfs crossed to Skykomish. The heavy stalk of the dwarf is transferred to the hybrid all the way up the vine which is quite indeterminant. The super firm fruits were juicy beyond their imagination. The fruits were red, not the bicolor of Skykomish and perfectly shaped. The flavor was better than the store bought tomatoes they are required to buy out of season. At the same time I showed them this one...I cut open a hybrid fruit from the cross of Anana Noir and Skykomish...a perfect bi-color! Yellow/orange with a red center.

BTW, Skykomish was developed in part from Randy Gardner's work.
Come out to Washington to see for yourself if enough divergent avenues of breeding are taking place.

The highest brix taken of my tomatoes yesterday was 8.5
Tom Wagner

[travis]

For those who are interested in open pollinated and heirloom varieties that actually are available for us to incorporate high lycopene and beta carotene into custom crosses, you may want to read this short report: http://treecropsresearch.org/heirloom-tomatoes/

You will see such familiar names as Abraham Lincoln (Buckbee's), German Red Strawberry and Peacevine Cherry (Red) as good sources of lycopene, while Juane Flamme ranks higher than Caro Rich for beta carotene, and Kentucky Beefsteak and Sunray also being good sources for beta carotene.

[travis]

Also worth looking into for use is the Tangerine tomato which researchers at Ohio State University have shown to provide higher amounts of digestable/usable lycopene than red tomatoes marketed as "high lycopene" varieties. This valuable source of digestable lycopene appears to be due to Tangerine carrying genetics for a cis lycopene isomer.

Tangerine is an old time, open pollinated standard, for example used to breed Jubilee, an F6 selection of Tangerine x Rutgers in 1943.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0227171013.htm

[doublehelix]

Wow! Quite a lot to address here. First of all I want to thank Mr. Wagner for the info. I admire what you are doing and really appreciate you taking the time to post some info about og. I tried to get as much technical knowledge as I could for the last several months before I ever posted here. My background is mostly in biochemistry but I do have a bit of genetics and immunology work under my belt as well. I can't seem to find any information on the "alpha" crimson gene germplasm. By that I mean that I can't really find what the oldest cultivar with og is and if it is available.

I read about Tasti-Lee several months ago and I have to say that I am actually excited to try it. I think it might be the thing all of us tomato lovers have been looking for, that happy medium between home grown and store bought. A good BLT in January is always a good thing.

Secondly, I suppose I should reiterate that I just wanted some information on the Crimson gene. My flippant comments were not intended to start any kind of controversy. I'm not sure why anyone would have been so eager to point out what I said as some sort of finger in the eye poke. I don't think there is a single tomato breeder, professional or amateur, that I don't admire and respect.

I suppose I should have just posted : CRIMSON GENE GERMPLASM WANTED and left it at that with no additional comments. I'll say it again. I just wanted some information. I'm not here to deride tomato breeders.

So, Travis, let me clarify each point. My apologies for not being more clear. When I wrote that I thought that I was at the end of this post because I really had not received much in the way of variety names that contained the crimson gene. While I might have been vague, I don't think I am in any way inaccurate and I think you might agree once I clarify. If I was inaccurate I doubt there would be a Tomatoville. Commercially available varieties of tomatoes are not really known for their taste. I think I probably have several million tomato eaters to back me up on that one, and at least several hundred thousand tomato growers. As for "only a hand full", I was really thinking in terms of major Universities. I'm sure the Monsanto's of the world have plenty of people working on lots of projects. But in the world of University programs, there are really just Cornell, Florida, NC State, Oregon State, UC Davis, Texas A & M, and a few other smaller programs. I can't recall more than a couple dozen, but I am not completely sure of the number. I don't know how that statement was inaccurate.

What I said about "divergent avenues of breeding", that too was vague. Not so inaccurate when talking about large commercial and academic programs. And I have to say, that was not a statement of condemnation and should not have been taken as such. It was just a fact. The very foundation of science is to build upon other people's work. This is the normal path in research. But when this process is used in hybridization programs it tends to produce a lot of similar results. If you look at the major programs their primary goal is to produce a fresh market tomato, not for the individual home gardener, but for commercial growers. There is more than 1 billion dollars at play in the tomato market. That's billion with a B. Since that is where the money is, that is where the research is. And rightfully so I might add. I think I need to clarify what I meant by divergent. There are about 20 or so plants including Flora-Dade, Walter, Suncoast, and several others that many would recognize that make up at least part of the genetic material of the majority of what is being bred. I'm not talking about the dedicated individual like Mr. Wagner or the dozen or so other professionals that are working on their own, or am I talking about the backyard hybridizer. I'm talking about the big seed companies and the University programs. There is a reason for their use of similar breeding stock. Those lines have desirable traits. Not just physical traits, but good disease resistance too. It makes sense to use them. However, Why not start over in some areas? Why not reinvent the wheel, so to speak? Why not start a program based on a little known USDA accession from the 30's? It's just an opinion, nothing more. I know that the short answer is that it takes too long and too many resources and too much money. Having come from a research science background, I know that time can't be part of the equation when dealing with grants. It might can be summed up by the old saying, "I hope my findings find my funding". At least that's what we used to say. For example, It doesn't matter how many new lines of breeding are introduced if they all share the same great grandfather such as Flora-dade then they are not what I would call divergent. I was just saying that I would like to see more people working with obscure plant material and building new lines that are comparable to the great lines that are being used in the commercial trade. That's what I was trying to say when I said there was not enough divergence. Still, just an opinion and not something to get worked up about. I was really just thinking out loud and didn't realize I had an audience or I would have explained myself a little more.

One more thing about this. I too am pursuing some lines that are following the work that others have earnestly laid out before me. I also must say that I said, "a lot of the amateur breeders", I did not say all of them. And again, this was not a statement of condemnation. I just know that everyone that ever decides to dust pollen onto something eventually wants to dust a little Brandywine somewhere. Self included by the way. There is nothing wrong with this and it is giving us some great tomatoes. I just think that the more obscure the crosses are, the more likely that we are going to see something very very different. I think Mr. Wagner's work is living proof of this by the way. No hybridizing effort is meaningless.

Also I might add that I am familiar with Dr. Gardner's work. I would say that about 80% of the commercial farms around here use at least one of his varieties. I am also familiar with Dr. Scott, Dr. Joe McFerran, the late Dr. Rick, and the awesome work of Tom Wagner, Keith Mueller, Brad Gates and a slew of others out there that I both admire and respect. I did not make this post to dismiss what they have done or what they are doing. I eagerly await trying every new thing these guys turn out.

Finally, I stand by my statement "an ugly or malformed fruit within an Fx segregation is not going to be pursued no matter how good the taste." In commercial breeding programs this is true. I would even bet that a malformed tomato doesn't even get tasted at all. Maybe this is presumptuous, but perhaps we should ask some of these people with PhD. after their name that have been referenced.

I thank you for the links Travis. Some good reads as well. I had read one of them prior to this post. I'm not really interested in any carotinoids other than lycopene. There are many nutritional sources of most carotinoids, but only 3 sources of lycopene. I hate grapefruit and watermelons make bad spaghetti sauce. And as stated earlier, this is about the Crimson Gene, not just lycopene content.

Travis and Tom I want to apologize if I offended. Perhaps we should start over here. The old fashion way?

Hi, my name is Steve and I am pleased to meet you.

One more thing. If while reading all of this it sounds like I'm being ♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫y then read it again and consider that I smiled the whole time I was typing it. I assure you none of what I was saying here is intended to be angry or arrogant or disrespectful. The internet has a way of turning good intentions into something else. I'm not a hostile person and I love people. I'm really easy to get along with in person and if for any reason I ever sound like a bhole then just send me a PM and I'll do my best to work it out.

Thanks again for the input.

[dice]

For the amateur breeders, flavor seems to be a higher priority
trait than it is for the big commercial companies. Popular
tomatoes probably turn up in their crosses because they
contribute good flavor and are not a waste of space in
themselves from that perspective. You only need a little
pollen to see how that good flavored tomato mixes with
the genes of something earlier, or more disease tolerant,
or bigger, or more productive, but you still get to eat the fruit
on the plant that donated the pollen, too.

Where space is limited, that matters.