Crack resistant varieties

[RinTinTin]

As far as an organic way of treating lumber, try raw linseed oil. The boiled linseed oil lasts much longer, but you need to determine if the brand you get is just boiled, or if it has chemicals added in the process.

Just brush it on, and let dry. Should last a season. Recoat each year before putting out.

[surf4grrl]

Jack, the reason for the PM was not to hijack the thread but it looks like the deed has been done - so my apologies to the OP.

The assumption we both grow bush determinates is premature - I grow indeterminate heirlooms that routinely get over 6 feet or so - rebar has been pretty useless - I've tried - I could post pics of my rows with the wood vs t-bar - nothing compares to t-bar so far that I've found - but I still go with wood -

& thanks so much RinTinTin, for the suggestion of linseed oil. I've never tried it and have to check with the OMRI standards but will do just that. Many thanks.

My problem with wood is that it just isn't sturdy enough for my tastes but I make do every year. LOL. The t-bar so far even in enormous quantity is too expensive.

[JackE]

I never thought about hijacking this thread - it's been sitting here idle for months and months! :-)

There's nothing toxic in raw linseed oil - unless it's added in processing. It's just flax seed oil. I am a retired painting contractor, as was my father, and as a little boy in the forties I remember hiim making his own exterior paint with white lead, boiled linseed oil and Japan drier (also lead-based). With the development of alkyd and latex resins in the fifties, linseed oil all but disappeared from the paint trade except for certain specialized uses such as restoring old wood. I got those highly toxic leads all over me - mouth, ears, eyes :-) - guess that's what's wrong with me now. LOL
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I agree 100% that tall vining tomatoes require t-posts or cages - rebar wouldn't work for sure. If you're going to grow in quantity, pruning would be a real drag too - however, I knew an ol' boy over in Luziana years ago who staked and pruned 1000 Homesteads (which I think now qualifies as an "heirloom") every year by himself. Back then, there was nothing special about those tomatoes - that was all we knew and we all planted them (and staked and pruned heavily).

It's hard to beat concrete wire cages - a 5'X150' roll is still around a $100 and makes about 40 18" cages (which you have to reinforce with a rebar stake - a 24" cage doesn't need the stake). They are miserable to fabricate, store and transport - and weeding inside the cages is a horrendous, knee-killing chore. You can't use any standard cultivation equipment, which is really rough on an organic grower because herbicides are prohibited. I remember growing caged tomatoes without herbicides and it was a nightmare - endless hours of weeding on hands and knees - but that's why y'all get five bucks a pound and we are lucky to get a dollar! LOL

Plasticulture is an option for you - but you still have to hand-weed around the plant and often where the cages enter and tear the plastic also. Unless you have a mulch layer/hiller implement it's very difficult and labor intensive to handle. Believe me - I've been there! It also requires a drip irrigation system - (actually, I have about 30K sq ft under drip irrigation - the rest is all sprinklers. I can run 15 3/4" sprinklers at once and still hold 40# pressure - a 4" pump and 2" lines. Excuse the bragging, I'm proud of it. LOL).

Jack

[surf4grrl]

Well, as organic growers we do use cultivators, discing etc. We just don't use chemicals/pesticide etc.

We aren't all total luddites!

Anway, cages are out - we're talking thousands upon thousands of plants - LOL!

I've been using the stakes - though they aren't great - I use 5 or 6 foot but they do break in the ground after a season - I will try the suggestion about the linseed oil. I love to buy 4,000 t-bars - it's at least what I'd need - but the $$$ is crazy - I'm planning on doing it in 1,000 piece increments - I think once we switch to t-bars, they'll last a very long time.

I do have them now, just not in the quantity I need. I also don't prune as a rule -

I use drip and plastic mulch too - a guy at one of the conferences I just went to said back in the day, he'd roll out the mulch buy hand - it was a pain and not terribly pretty - but it did the job and I've done it both ways.

[JackE]

You misunderstood me - I meant that cultivation implements can't be used with cages - can't lay the dirt to the plants. I should have been clearer. I know that organic growers use machinery :-). I used to be organic myself (as a home gardener before I "retired".)
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"Thousands upon thousands" of t-posts aren't just a huge capital investment - they are also going to carry very high labor costs to drive and pull. That's going to be quite an undertaking. Have you pulled t-posts? "It ain't no picnic", as they say, unless you have VERY soft, sandy soil. ---- You have to back the tractor up to each post, chain it to the toolbar, walk around and raise the hydraulic lever, go back and move the chain down and raise the hydraulic lever a second time (depending on depth). Then unchain it, carry it to a nearby stack so you don't destroy an implement later, and coil-up the chain up so it doesn't get lost in the weeds. If you pull at the wrong angle and the spade is facing the tractor, you will bend the post and it can't be straightened or reused. You will lose about 10% of the posts that way every year. Then, you have to reposition the tractor and do it all again - 4000 times! If you really hustle, you might pull 400 in a 8 hr day by yourself -- cheap hired help, maybe 200. NY min wage is 7.25/hr. Those are just educated guesses - but pretty close.

Let's talk about driving them. The best way is with two people one holding the post and the other operating a bucket loader on the tractor. Place the bucket on the post and push it in with the hydraulics. The alternatives are -(1) a pipe driver (heavy iron pipe with handles welded on the sides - weighs 30 or 40 pounds and must be lifted above your head to get it over the post. OUCH!!! This torture device will wear-out a strong young man in a few hours! Or, (2) use a small, one-handed sledge-type hammer to hand drive and carry a small ladder - or try to swing a heavy hammer over your head. After about a dozen t-posts your arm feels like it's falling-off, even if you're young! You'll have to use a tractor with a front loader and a helper - also labor intensive.

I used to help build cattle fencing as a young man - I was so sore at night from driving t-posts I could hardly move!

Perhaps you may want to consider a cultivar that's suitable for large-scale field production and meets the taste requirements of your market. Celebrity Bush comes to mind as a decent choice - certainly not a Brandywine, but a pretty fair slicing tomato nonetheless. It's a compromise, but a heck of a lot better than fighting 4000 t-posts twice a year.

Maybe you have some modern tools or techniques that I don't know about, but I've driven a few t-posts in my day. :-)

Jack

[surf4grrl]

I know the t-post are a pain, but worth it. I'm not looking to do it ina day or so - but over the course of 2 weeks. We use both methods to get them in and hydraulic driver that you hold and the old pipe driver. It doesn't weigh that much anymore, maybe about half od that.

& yeah, it's a workout OK - but I have lots of help for these too. So, to me the real investment is $$$.

Our soil here in the island (at least where I am) is pretty soft. I can move the t-post make a forth (jiggle kinda) and then pull it directly up.

I'm heirlloms all the way.

I've I start to cultivate anything more than 5 acres of heirloom tomatoes, then I'll re-consider.

But thank you so much sharing your experience. I love hearing how everyone else has done it or is doing it!

[dipchip2000]

FWIW

I made a t-post puller out of a 8foot section of 2inch pipe with an Ibolt put through one end. Attach a section of strong enough chain to the threaded end of Ibolt and wrap around the T-post and hook other end over the Ibolt. Use a jackstand (like you put under a car for safety) as a fulcrum. Most post come out with one try with a minimum of effort because of the length of the pipe. Because you are pulling straight up, post are not bent or damaged. Works great for me but I only use about 75 post every year.

ron

[JackE]

I never thought there was THAT much market for organic heirloom tomatoes - but when I think about where you're located -Long Island- it makes more sense. Just from what I see on TV and read about, that's a very upscale place with lots of rich people and gourmet types. The land to grow them on must be worth a small fortune though - you'll need at least an acre. How many millions is an acre of undeveloped land worth on Long Island? I just hope you don't get diseases - those varieties have no resistance to anything - completely vulnerable.

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Ron - Tractor supply sells a puller like that. I have one that we use for stubborn rebar. It will also pull t-posts, but needs two people for best performance and speed. Even 75 is a lot of work, huh?

Jack

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by JackE

"Thousands upon thousands" of t-posts aren't just a huge capital investment - they are also going to carry very high labor costs to drive and pull. That's going to be quite an undertaking. Have you pulled t-posts? "It ain't no picnic", as they say, unless you have VERY soft, sandy soil.

I was going to ask if you were driving into concrete. To support a few pounds worth of tomatoes, they don't need to be driven to China. Just a few whacks with a sledge and move on to the next one.

Anyway, I say stick with what works for you. You've already indicated that your customers expect bright, shiny, round red, perfectly ripe tomatoes and won't accept anything else (and you don't even like tomaoes), so I say go with what works, cheapest, and easiest to scale up.

[JackE]

I don't use t-posts for tomatoes, Feldon. My experience with t-posts has been with barbed wire fencing and trellises. I usually drive them in about a foot - to where I can't see the spade. If you don't drive them in at least that far they are top heavy and quite unstable. I use CRW cages for vining tomatoes - and if I were doing what she is planning, I would use cages and plastic mulch for organic tomatoes and cages and herbicides for regular tomatoes.

Jack

[surf4grrl]

Jack - any farmer I've spoken to yet - uses florida weave - no cages. Florida weave is a standard, I guess - unless you let them wander on the ground on the mulch.

Where would you store 10,000+ cages any way? I don't have a barn big enough to put those - I've seen them - & they sure are nice - but space suckers.

I guess, I need to muck around and try to find something lightweight but sturdy - maybe titanium is the answer??? LOL.

[surf4grrl]

FWIW

I made a t-post puller out of a 8foot section of 2inch pipe with an Ibolt put through one end. Attach a section of strong enough chain to the threaded end of Ibolt and wrap around the T-post and hook other end over the Ibolt. Use a jackstand (like you put under a car for safety) as a fulcrum. Most post come out with one try with a minimum of effort because of the length of the pipe. Because you are pulling straight up, post are not bent or damaged. Works great for me but I only use about 75 post every year.

ron

That's a great idea - thanks!!

Oh, & please don't get the idea I cater to the rich - or that anyone who is organically growing on LI is doing that necessarily. Farming is gosh darnoodley hard and no one I know is rich yet. lol.

I believe in food justice and am involved in getting organic produce to the lower income folks/EBT/WIC etc.

Good food shouldn't be just for the wealthy - it should be afford for everyone.

BTW, the worth of land is not necessarily quanitifiable in $$ terms. There's alot of land preservation to stop strip mall developers. That's a whole 'nother story.

[Stepheninky]

Originally Posted by surf4grrl

I know the t-post are a pain, but worth it. I'm not looking to do it ina day or so - but over the course of 2 weeks. We use both methods to get them in and hydraulic driver that you hold and the old pipe driver. It doesn't weigh that much anymore, maybe about half od that.

& yeah, it's a workout OK - but I have lots of help for these too. So, to me the real investment is $$$.

Our soil here in the island (at least where I am) is pretty soft. I can move the t-post make a forth (jiggle kinda) and then pull it directly up.

I'm heirlloms all the way.

I've I start to cultivate anything more than 5 acres of heirloom tomatoes, then I'll re-consider.

But thank you so much sharing your experience. I love hearing how everyone else has done it or is doing it!

I saw a youtube video on late blight in the north east and when they showed their plants it was Florida weave but they used either the 3/4 or 1/2 inch metal conduit.

Made me think of your post they come in 10 ft (longer ones too I think) lengths, so using those or a combination of those and T post might be an option. The later ideal T post could be used on the ends and spaced way out with the majority of the post being the conduit. I would think either option would be stronger and longer lasting than the wood.

[surf4grrl]

I saw a youtube video on late blight in the north east and when they showed their plants it was Florida weave but they used either the 3/4 or 1/2 inch metal conduit.

Made me think of your post they come in 10 ft (longer ones too I think) lengths, so using those or a combination of those and T post might be an option. The later ideal T post could be used on the ends and spaced way out with the majority of the post being the conduit. I would think either option would be stronger and longer lasting than the wood.

I didn't even think of that - thanks for passing that on...

[RinTinTin]

What I've been thinking about doing with the metal conduit, is slipping it over a 4' piece of rebar that has been pounded ½ way into the soil. Use t-bars for the end posts. To drive the rebar into the ground, slip a pipe nipple with a cap on the end over it so you don't maul the end with your sledge hammer.