Purple underneath seedling leaves, then they curl up and die

[rwsacto]

Hi Naysen,

A couple of observations. Six inch pots at two weeks seems to me to be a bit large too early. Mine are about the same size but still in small cups.

If you have to top water with the baster, water only around the edges of the pot leaving the top center dry. Make the roots find the water.

At this age, I only let the plants smell the fertilizer, I don't let them taste it yet!

Rick

[z_willus_d]

Hi Rick. I hate to have to perform three transplants, so I've standardized on the seed starting plug/cell to 6" to in the ground/final pot. I might switch to small 4" pots with more depth next time, since the 6" get to taking up too much surface area. I got the 6" pots last year when I was starting a lot of broccoli and cauliflower indoors and I found they would get root-bound and start to flag so fast in the smaller 3"/4" cups I had.

I tend to focus my basting on the outside where it's most dry but then I added some in the center too, but you're right I should let the water leach over and/or the roots find the water. I'll be sure to follow your guidance with basting only the edges come next watering.

It should be another fine day here in Sacramento. My Indoor dwarfs are going out again. They were out yesterday too, and I think they love the sun and fresh air. Of course, now I have an infestation of tiny white flies to deal with... the bad side of every coin.
-naysen

[rwsacto]

Hi Naysen,

My babies have been enjoying the last several days in the sunshine-but are kept under a light sheer curtain that is doubling as a bug screen. I just transplanted three adolescents to 4 inch pots today.

Rick

[z_willus_d]

Hmm. That's not a bad way to harden-off. I'll have to find some mosquito netting or the like before the storms come back
Enjoy the weekend.

[rwsacto]

Naysen,

Just buy a cheap shear curtain or get the material at a yard goods store.

Rick

[lakelady]

Naysen, I've got the purple undersides to my seedlings too. Mine are in the basement, it gets between 61-65 degrees most of the time. I also have the fan blowing (probably too long) and at times forget to turn off the lights. My basement tends towards damp so I need the air movement to prevent any fungal issues. I think the peppers dont' like the cool treatment as much as the tomatoes, but thought what the heck, lets try a few.

I did learn a very important lesson from the winter project and that was no ferts at all for quite some time. Knowing this, I still used a teensy tiny amount of Bio-Tone, diluted, and noticed a few of my seedlings DID NOT LIKE IT. So I'm sworn off any amendments and the like until plants are stronger and older.

I used to be of the school of thought that "more is better" and now I'm of the school of thought that says "less is more" lol

I can't even keep up with you guys with all the fancy stuff, you make my head spin!

Just for fun, here are some comparisons on size for the seedlings that got the cool treatment versus grown in the house at 68-70 degrees.

[z_willus_d]

LL(A)-

Those peppers are looking good. I'm surprised a small amount of Bio-Tone was enough to harm your seedlings, given I was under the impression bio-tone was targeted to seedling feeding.

Well today I potted up my 2nd wave of plugs, 22 in all. This time I used 100% FoxFarms Light Warrior, which has a higher Perlite content, more peat moss and is generally less "hot" and nutrient rich than the FF Ocean Forest mix. I'm hoping the lighter mix will be more forgiving to this 2nd batch of seedlings.

I am still fighting the originally described problem, and today was as bad a day as any, as I had to pull-out around 7 shriveled up branches from my sagging seedlings (actually, one the branches looked half-way healthy and less purple, but it had kinked about 1/2" from the trunk out). I say sagging because despite earlier comments about skyward facing leaves, these seedlings are lately all quite languid and saggy. You can almost make this out in the pics I've posted from today.

The last 4 pics show some of the branches/leaves that fell-off today. In a few of the preceding pics, you can just make out some of the next set of leaves to go where it's intensely purple and a bit shriveled.

I've cut back on the fan on time, and now just try to keep air moving in the room rather than directly on the plants. I'm hitting 88F at the hottest and generally around 85F during the day. Maybe the seedlings are getting hot?

I just gave them a foliar spray of just water before taking the pics. I'm not watering much, and I wonder at times if the plants are suffering for it.

Anyway, I'll keep forging forward and hope these plants can survive long enough to get into their final homes.

--naysen

[rnewste]

Naysen,

To me, your pictures 2 through 8 look way too dry. If you poke your finger down the side of the pots about an inch, is the potting mix moist?

Your plants look quite good otherwise. The leaf drooping could have been caused by a bit too much Roots Excelurator, as a thought.

Bottom line, check the moisture and hold off any more additives for a week or so.

Raybo

[z_willus_d]

Ray, thanks for looking at all those pics! I've been really stingy with the water since several folks suggested I might be over-watering and bind the roots up (hence no P getting to the leafs). I'll try your test and check for moister down an inch and report back.

As for additives, I'm through with that for a while. The 2nd set of 22 seedlings will get nothing, and we'll see how they do in their sparsely or sparser endowed Light Warrior mix.

Thanks!
Naysen

[Fusion_power]

Giving too much fertilizer or giving too little are both bad news. You have to know how much is needed and be prepared to give an appropriate amount. Here is a simple conversion that you can work out. I am not saying to use miracle grow, this example is to give a common baseline for starting seedlings properly.

1/4 teaspoon of 15-30-15 miracle grow diluted in water is enough to properly fertilize 50 seedlings though the 6 leaf stage. You can easily convert this to any other fertilizer by adjusting the amount in proportion. For example, a 1-3-2 seaweed based product would need roughly 4 teaspoons of the seaweed emulsion for 50 plants. Check your product, the conversion is fairly easy.

Please note that this presumes the seed start mix was unfertilized to start with. If you began with fertilized mix, then you can probably wait until the plants are 4 to 6 inches tall before giving anything extra. I say "probably" because different mixes have varying amounts of fertilizers included. You have to adjust based on what the plants are doing.

Here are a few tricks I use. Look at the whorl of leaves at the top of the plant. If they are lighter colored, slightly yellowish, then you have too much nitrogen. If they are dark green but the plant is not growing, then you don't have enough nitrogen. If the leaves are purple, then check the growing temperature and if needed add a phosphorus source with low nitrogen. Potassium is tough to judge but there is a rule of thumb that too much phosphorus blocks absorption of potassium and vice versa. You have to keep them in balance. For this reason, a fertilizer with roughly twice as much phosphorous as potassium is best at the seedling stage.

Micronutrients are another thing many plants are abused with. As a general rule, most commercial seed start mixes will have enough micronutrients to keep seedlings going until they are 8 or 10 inches tall. If you are starting with something like pine bark fines or commercial peat moss, then you won't have enough micronutrients and the mix will be mildly acidic unless you added lime. The rule of thumb I use is to add 1/2 teaspoon of micronutrients with NPK and 1/4 cup of dolomite lime to 20 gallons of homemade mix. You may have to adjust this up or down a bit to make it work properly, especially if you start with something like coconut coir.

The last thing I will add is re sunlight vs artificial lighting. Tomato plants thrive under sunlight. Artificial lights are always somewhat unbalanced in this regard. That is why I have a greenhouse. Even so, I have a light stand and all my seed are started under fluorescent and moved to the greenhouse when they just start to show the first true leaves.

DarJones

[amideutch]

Naysen, here is a pictorial view of how I do my seedlings. The only ferts I use is liquid worm casings and some BioBizz Algamic.
4th,5th and 6th pictures with seedlings transplanted to Cow/Dot pots using Light Warrior at different growth phases and this is where the stay till they are planted. Nothing was added to the Light Warrior aggregate on plant out and periodically Liquid worm casings and Algamic added to the watering can. No supplemental light just what comes in the window. Ami

http://www.discount-hydro.com/produc...-Castings.html

http://www.amazon.com/Biobizz-Alg-Li.../dp/B002JV5KGC

[z_willus_d]

Ami, thanks for sharing the routine. I wish I had nice large south-facing windows like you do in your setup. Unfortunately, the only smallish (by comparison) south-facing window in my house is dedicated to the realm of our new-born. The seedlings, as they should be, are relegated to a side room where I only get a slit of light for the hour or two that the setting sun isn't blocked by the neighbor's monolith. I wish I had a way to get more natural light into the equation, as I've always relied on it at least partially in the past and had fewer issues then.

So your seeds are getting a reasonably rich diet with those two amendments, the cow pots, and what's intrinsic to the Light Warrior setup. I'm coming to believe that I haven't over-fertilized in the traditional sense, given that to date I have only once added a small half-strength dilution of liquid kelp/fish feed to a watering cycle. Other than that, it's been the mycos, one-time 1/2 strength root-excelurator, actinovate, and a bit of molasses with the mycos. This could be a case where too many products that are all supposed to be beneficial and benign low-to-nil NPK -- too many of these things together result in badness.

I produce my own worm castings (not added to the potting mix this year), and I'm planning on getting into brewing teas with them this year. To date, I've always just added the goods as a side-dressing or in the hole at transplant.

I have House & Garden's new Amino treatment product, which reads similar to the Algamic you've recommended, if not far more expensive. I haven't used it yet, but I plan to once the plants start beefing up and looking healthier. The instructions recommend constant application at watering after the 2nd week of growth. I'm into the 3rd week now.

Well again, beautiful plants you have there.
--naysen

[z_willus_d]

DarJones-

I found your write-up very helpful, particularly the paragraph with tips on how to detect under vs. over "Nitrogenization." Based on your descriptions, I would conclude that I have not added too much "N" into the equation, as I do not show signs of rapid growth nor the yellowing of leaves that you've described.

Rather, the seedlings continue to exhibit "purpling" of their leaves, and the stems to some extent. Usually, as I did this morning, I walk in to find a set of dead, soggy curled up leaves on a branch that falls off to the touch. Sometimes, the branch will contain one leaf that's clearly affected (purple curled up and necrotic) with a second leaf that doesn't appear so affected (regular green with less purple). It's as if the plant is tossing out the good with the bad.

My soil temps gets down to around 66F at night (room temp never below 67F). The temps rise up to between 78F and 85F (max) during the day. These have been the conditions from day1. Humidity is fairly stable at 40-43% during the day and up to 50% at night when the lights are off. I don't believe it's possible my P uptake issue, if indeed that's what's resulting in the purple, could be caused by cold soil/environmental conditions.

You mentioned a balance between P and K where too much of one can block the availability of the other. Perhaps I've somehow overloaded the plants with K (maybe with the one-time application of molasses (1TBS to 2 gal with the watering that included Mycos and Actinovate). If that were true, than I would need to either somehow sap-out the overwhelming K or add more P, though adding more of anything at this point is off the table unless I know for a certain what I'm dealing with.

To the folks using FoxFarm's Light Warrior. I spent some time measuring the pH of the Ocean Forest and Light Warrior potting mixes. I used my Hanna Instruments glass-tip pH meter after calibrating it in 7.01 buffer solution. I was surprised to find the pH was in the mid to high 5's rather than the low to mid 6's as expected. It might be worth checking your grow medium's pH if you're using these products. Sadly, I have the opposite problem in my outdoor beds where the pH is reading high 7's / low 8's (added too much lime). I've been trying to correct down with sulfur pellets and cottonseed meal, but it takes time to know to where the pH will equalize because it the sulfur, lime and cottonseed all take effect slowly as they break-down.

I'm going to try a deep watering today. Ray was right, many of my pots are dry down 1" and only slightly moist below. I remain in the dark as to what's causing the purple and more importantly branch/leaf aborts. Until I know, I'm not adding anything but water and light, and on that latter ingredient less of it based on Dice's link that suggests too much light can cause leaves to purple. I've cut the ON/OFF ratio down to 14-16H ON / 8-10H OFF.

Thanks,
Naysen

[Fusion_power]

I've read tons of advice about growing seedlings at 65 degrees, but my experience has been that steady 65 is a very bad temperature for tomatoes. I like to see them go down to about 50 at night and up to about 90 in the day. This seems to stimulate them to grow healthier and with few problems. I suggest you either bring it up to 80 degrees for a day or two or else put them on a heat mat. The increased temperature will distinctly improve the roots ability to absorb nutrients. The other thing that would help would be to put the plants out into the sun if it is warm enough to do so. I just don't trust even the most expensive grow light systems. Keep in mind that your seedlings are NOT hardened off. You would have to do this gradually to acclimate the plants.

DarJones

[lakelady]

Great tips from everyone, Dar that was a great post about signs of too much nitrogen! Naysen, I'm grateful for your posts/experiences because trust me, there are others like myself who do have similar issues as well at times, and it's hugely helpful to follow the progress/diagnosis