Frustrated Texas Newbie with many questions

[DogsandDirt]

Hey Y'all,

I'm new to the formum but have been reading a lot of posts and learning a lot. There is a wealth of knowledge and experience here and I am hoping that fellow 'mater growers can help me out. This is my third year with a spring/summer garden and it's not going well .

Here's my set up:

I have 6 heirloom tomatoes. 2 are in a 4x4 raised bed. In that bed the Cherokee Purple (bought as a transplant from a chain nursery) is doing pretty well, has about 8-10 set fruit. It's buddy is a Black Cherry (started from seed) that looks absolutely terrible but does have some fruit. It started to develop wilted, then crispy foliage and is just about naked now. Some of the yuck seems to be moving to the Cherokee Purple.

The other 4 tomatoes are in 16" plastic pots (which are on a concrete driveway).
Black Sea Man: started from seed; also having the same issue as Black Cherry but not as bad; planted in re-used potting mix amended with compost; 6 fruits, 2 with BER
Thessaloniki: started from seed; some early blight (?), same issues as others already mentioned; planted in re-used potting mix amended with compost; 4 fruit, 1 with BER
Aunt Ruby's German Green: started from seed; same issues as others; no fruit; planted in new Ladybug Brand Vortex potting mix
Costoluto Genovese: massive leaf wilt to cripsy; one fruit with cracking. I'm wondring if this is even Costoluto Genovese since the lone fruit is not pleated.

The spider mites are a big problem and I sprayed with neem this morning (hopefully won't burn in the heat). I also fertilized with Hasta Gro Plant Plus liquid (6-12-6) with Cal-Mag Bloom added for "the snack". I fertilize monthly with an organic fertilizer from a local nursery (4-6-5).

I sprayed with Actinovate last week to see if it would help the mysterious crisping of the leave. Week before I sprayed with Exel LG.

Here's my questions:
1. How long do I need to wait after spraying neem before I can spray with something else (ie. "spa day" treatment with liquid seaweed)

2. In others' experience, what spray schedule has worked to keep plants healthy? What is the best spray rotation in regards to Actinovate, Serenade, Exel LG, and "spa day"?

3. What is the best fertilizer schedule? I think I'm not feeding frequently enough. There seem to be a lot of differences in what others use. Anything that would work better in this crazy hot climate?

4. Would providing shade or using a shade cloth help at all? The container plants get 8-10 hours of full sun and the pots are on the driveway. The plants in the 4x4 bed get shade starting around 4-5 pm. The temperatures have been hovering just below 100 degrees for a week with no end in site

5. I am not impressed with the Ladybug Vortex potting soil . Plants aren't as vigorus and my watermelon and cucumbers in this mix are pale and small, no fruit yet either. It seems to have some sort of weird drainage; looks wet on top but bone dry when you dig in it. Any suggestions for better container mixes and what I could add to the Vortex? Thinking of trying EartTainers next summer.

Sorry this is so long. I appreciate any help and pearls of wisdom others can impart. Thanks!

[Dewayne mater]

That is an impressive list for a newbie! Welcome to T'ville, you are at the right place for answers. I don't have them all, but may have some insight. I'm in the Metroplex too and I believe we have some really harsh growing conditions here (everywhere in Texas just about) that present many challenges. If you have pictures you can post, diagnosis help is more likely to be provided.

Let me weigh in on shade cloth. I have been using a 50% shade cloth I ordered on line for a few years now and think it is a major tool in extending the life of plants and getting maximum fruit set. Tomatoes may like a lot of sun, but not when it is 100 degrees daily and hot at night too. Standing under my shade cloth it feels 10 degrees or more cooler to me than when I'm in direct sun and I know the plants feel and appreciate that too. SO definitely include this tool now and in the future.

In my experience, black cherry is very prone to fungal crud that turns the leaves dark gray and/or crispy. Once it starts down that road, it is tough to win the battle, imo.

I wish I could answer your frequency of spraying question. I know when I had really bad disease pop up quickly this year, I started hitting it hard. I used Excel G, Actinovate, Daconil, Serenade, neem oil and Maxicrop seaweed liquid. In a 3 week time period, I was spraying something probably every 3rd day and I pulled the affected foliage. I won't say I eliminated disease, but, I did greatly slow down the process on all but two plants, which are living still, but about to get pulled because I don't think they are ever going to produce.

When it comes to the Maxicrop, I'm not afraid to spray it often as I think it is a beneficial with no downside and in this heat, I've sprayed that as much as all the other stuff combined.

With the other items, I've tried to rotate so that even though I'm spraying every few days, I'm spraying something different each time. I wish I had science to back up my experience that when you are no longer in prevention mode, but attack on existing disease mode, spraying more often is helpful. I don't have that back up. However, for me that approach has been working this year.

One last thing, I've been told that spider mites are a secondary problem. I.E. they come in when your plants are otherwise weak from disease, watering issues, other insects like stinkbugs, etc. They don't appear to like maxicrop because with all the foliar issues I've had this year, spider mites haven't been an issue and they usually make an appearance in a big way in this heat.

[DogsandDirt]

Thank you for the information Dewayne Mater! Where did you get the shade cloth? I read a few more posts and will also try Take Down per Raybo's recommendations, or Pyganic per Suze's recommendation (see which one I can find first). I'll also step up the liquid seaweed sprays to try to make the mites as unhappy as they're making me!

Here are some pictures of my sad, sad maters (pics taken at 5:10 pm):

Purple Cherokee (left) vs Black Cherry (right)
PC vs BC.jpg PC vs BC2.jpg

Black Cherry funk:
black cherry funk.jpg

Cherokee Purple foliage:
Purple Cherokee foliage.jpg Purple Cherokee leaves wilting.jpg Purple Cherokee wilting4.jpg

Rogues gallery baking in the sun (also 5:10 pm, 99 degrees in the shade according to my thermometer). From left to right Costoluto Genovese (or an imposter), Aunt Ruby's German green (purple pot), Thessaloniki (green pot), Black Sea Man (purple pot)
Spring 2011 container maters.jpg

Thessaloniki leaves:
Thessaloniki1.jpg Thessaloniki2.jpg

D&D,

I'm about sixty miles north of DFW up I-35. I think we hit 98 degrees today. It's tough on my garden including the tomatoes. My garden started out great and set a lot of fruit early on about thirty varieties. I have a mixture of OP with a few hybrids. After the plants were heavy with fruit, septoria hit pretty hard and took most of the leaves and branches off the plants two thirds of the way up the plants leaving a lot of fruit hanging on naked plants. I put up some shade cloths to protect most of them from the sun and they are doing fine plus they are generating new growth from the bottom. For me, this cycle of naked plants, but good production is pretty normal. The new growth from the bottom is where my fall tomato crop is normally produced after I cut the dead stuff back later in the season.

My Black Cherry and Sungold cherry plants look pitiful, but they keep on producing. I was late getting them in the ground this spring so they are not as tall as they usually are at this time in the season. They will also generate new growth and produce heavy in the fall from the new growth. My new growth is rarely affected by any foliar disease because our summer and fall climate is so dry. Our Spring climate starts out moist and cool which is the perfect climate for fungal foliar disease.

I don't spray anything on my garden. I will sometimes try something like Daconil to slow some of the diseases, but it is a half hearted attempt with low expectations. I have had such a huge infestation of predatory insects like spiders, assassin bugs, and lady bugs that I don't want to harm, so no insecticides either. In years past, I would use insecticides, but once you start using them, you have to keep using them through the season and varying the product you use.

As usual, in this heat; my garden looks like it is on deaths door step, but it continues to produce extremely well. Since production is my goal, I've stopped worrying about how it looks. It will look much better in the fall and it should produce well.

Ted

[feldon30]

DogsandDirt,

I'm out of Texas for the year but will give it a shot giving some of my ideas on your post.

This year has been brutal even by Texas standards as far as sustained high temperatures.

Originally Posted by DogsandDirt

It's buddy is a Black Cherry (started from seed) that looks absolutely terrible but does have some fruit. It started to develop wilted, then crispy foliage and is just about naked now.

If you are seeing blackening and crisping of leaves on Black Cherry, that's something I and others have seen for several years now, such that we're starting to move away from this favorite variety to other options like Purple Haze. We suspect that it's Botrytis.

The Cherokee Purple looks like scalding of the leaves and is a bit of a different problem than the Black Cherry. And I can see very clearly the spider mite damage on your Thessaloniki. I agree some of your container plants are rather small and thin compared to what they should be at this point -- 7 foot bushy monsters.

The fact that it's June 8th and you haven't harvested the bulk of your tomatoes yet suggests to me that either planting date was late, or plants haven't grown at the expected rate due to soil, fertilization, etc. It sounds like you are spending a fortune on soil amendments, but I just want to go back to basics and ask how big your seedlings were when you planted them, and the date of planting.


Also as for your melons and cucumbers, I have found that especially melons really like compost and composted manure. Whereas I might give my tomatoes 15-20% compost, I will load up my melons with closer to 50% composted manure and they love it.

Sorry you are having a rough year and hope you'll make it to SETTFest.

[Dewayne mater]

As Feldon says, the planting date is everything in Texas. Especially bc the big heat came early and has stayed, everything that is going to set, probably already has, except for Cherry types and maybe a stray here or there (if you shake them daily). I planted out on March 8...which would've been fantastic except for the bad hail storm that broke all the top stems and flowers and caused a set back of 2-3 weeks I think. So, consider New years day to start your seeds. By early March, you'll have rocking transplants that have nice thick stems bc cold will slow their growth.

I too have seen the crud on black cherry. They are susceptible to whatever that is. This year I have had B.C. in a spot where absolutely no sprinkler water hits the leaves and I've been pretty consistent with antifungals. At this point, it has lost some lower leaves, but not had a major issue, so my suspicion is that B.C. can't tolerate any water on its leaves at all. Sungold (which I am loving for flavor and production) also seems more prone to leaf disease, but, not the same type as B.C.

I bought my sun shade cloth on line at www.green-tek.com They make up custom sized cloths, using the degree of sun protection you request. They put an edging around the outside with grommets sewn in every foot. This makes installation a snap. I'm sure they are not the cheapest, but, I've had mine a few years now and it is holding up great, so I've been very pleased with their product.

Growing heirloom tomatoes is a journey and one I try to improve upon my techniques every year. Still, mother nature has a lot to say about what type of success we have around here, so, enjoy the journey, do what you can and remember there is always next year. It looks like you're having some success, so congrats! I consider it a very successful year if I can nurse my plants along and get some sort of production through July 4th. I.E. the end is near! There are a few guys that manage to get many of their plants to survive the summer and start producing again in fall...look up "suburban green" I think. I still haven't figured out what all he does, but I'm impressed. I think moderator Suze accomplishes this too. I commend every single post of hers to you as they are all gold! Good luck.

Dewayne Mater.

[DogsandDirt]

Thank you Dewayne Mater, Ted, and Feldon, for your help, insight, and moral support. Texas weather has not been kind to tomatoes this year. Dewayne, thanks for the shade cloth link.

I started my seeds in peat pellets February 9, transplanted to 4" cow pots with Vortex potting mix on February 27. Planted out on March 26/27 to the large containers and the grow bed. I waited until after the last frost date since last year it snowed on March 20. They did look a little spindly and were about 12" tall. Do you fertilize seedlings? If so, with what?

When do you start seeds for fall? Are there any other varieties that are disease resitant? I'd like to try the Purple Haze - cool name!

Is it time to pull the Aunt Ruby's German Green and the Costoluto? I don't think they're going to produce any more (Aunt Ruby has no fruit at all). Has anyone tried propagating from cuttings or suckers or am I just going to propagate spider mites? Ted, how do you get your plants through the summer? I was going to try with Cherokee Purple since it looks the healthiest.

Feldon, I'll try to get to SEETFEST. And thanks for the cucumber and watermelon advice.

Also, one more picture of a different Cherokee Purple that was growing in a container. It was purchased from a local nursery and developed this weird growth habit; branches curled like a corkscrew and was stunted. Split branches with what seem to be root primordia. I had a Blondkopfchen that did the same thing. They're both in tomato heaven now . Has anyone seen this before?
tomato illness.jpg

[feldon30]

I think March 26-27 is just too late unless you get really lucky.

I've had and I know Suze had frosts or near-frosts as late as the 2nd week of April. As a result, we've both adopted the practice of wrapping our tomato cages with lightweight row cover on the day our tomatoes are planted and leaving it in place until mid-April.

There is plenty of sun penetration through the row cover, there's no more scrambling to install blankets, sheets, plastic, etc. when cold is predicted, and the slight greenhouse effect seems to accelerate the growth of the plants and fruit by up to 1 week. It's certainly worth further study.

[creister]

D&D,

I too have seen that problem with the black cherry as well. It spread to nearby plants one year, they held on longer, but were dead sooner rather than later.

My last frost date is March 31st, but the years I plant earlier, March 15th, I have had very good results. In Texas, you have to plant out early for best results. I also use row cover, which can be purchased at many online vendors. I use the 85% light transmission, which is rated to give about 4 degrees of frost protection (28 degrees). I also recommend grow cover to keep the wind damage to a minimum.

When I pot my plants into 4inch containers, I mix 1 part earthworm castings, and 3 parts potting mix. Watering them with seaweed is okay after they have their first set of true leaves. You can always dilute the seaweed to half strength as well.

For fall, you want to plant out about 12 - 14 weeks before your first frost date. So you would plant seeds 6 weeks before that. Be prepared to shade these plants with shade cloth or just move them into shade from about 1pm to 6pm, the heat of the day.

You can try the cuttings, personally, I've not had much success with them. You can also try cutting your exsisting plants down to about 12 to 24 inches around the first week of July. Treating them for mites and disease is much easier and successful when you cut them back, just remember to water them plenty. Good luck

Curt Reister

[creister]

Your picture in your last post of CP, looks more like mechanical damage via wind causing that part of the plant to rub against your support system. I've had plants do that off and on, and just let it grow.

[DogsandDirt]

Thank you for the information, Curt. From yours and others' responses I have some good ideas to improve my tomato growing for the fall and next spring. I still really hate to let go of the CP, Black Sea Man, and Thessaloniki. They are such troopers.

One area that I think would help is changing the potting mix. I'm not ready to give up on containers and I learned a lot from a link to a GW post about the nature of water and particle size - so enlightening. Of course, this leads to more questions:

1) Can I substitute expanded shale for the perlite in the 5-1-1 mix?
2) If I use MG potting soil, do I still need to add perlite or shale?
3) I found "pine bark mulch top dressing" and "organic compost" at Calloways. Both are 100% pine bark and composted. Particle size appears to be smaller than a dime. Is this the correct particle size? I'll try to post pictures.
4) What bleach concentration is best for sterilizing the containers?

[Dewayne mater]

D&D - I went to containers last year out of necessity. I plan to continue using them. Last year I had plants producing and healthy far later than ever before (picking tomatoes well into July) when I'd only been in soil. This year between a bad hail storm that broke the tops off of all of my plants and caused a major set back time wise and the summer-like heat that came at the end of May and maybe will start to dissipate in October, I've still had a pretty good year...though not like last year. So, I'd encourage you to give it a least another year, plant out earlier...especially in containers where you can theoretically move them in the garage for protection and with more experience and hopefully a more normal onset of big heat, you will have a hugely productive year next year. Note, I use earthtainers built using Raybo's plans on line here and they are superb in my opinion. Try some!

I use Ray's recommended mix of 3:2:1 with that being soiless mix (pro mix bx), bark fines, and perlite. That mix keeps the medium fluffier and promotes water wicking up from the bottom.

Expanded shale - might work in other containers, I don't think it would in earthtainers. That is rock and therefore extremely heavy compared to perlite, though both are just providing air space.

Pine bark mulch - yes, smaller than a dime is what you want. As for organic compost, I'd be surprised if that was only pine bark. So far, Ray's recommendations have all been for the use of pine bark fines only and not compost. Creister may have some experience with compost in an earthtainer, but, I've chosen to follow Ray's advice, which borrows heavily from the recommendations of those who grow plants that sell for a heck of lot more money than $3 a pound like tomatoes! Those folks have big money at stake and therefore are quite serious about the methods they follow. FYI - if you don't mind going into their shops, they are quite knowledgeable about growing in soiless containers.

[creister]

I will say, that one year I tried Howard Garretts (aka Dirtdoctor) mix with expanded shale, coir, and some lava rock in self watering containers. I did not have much success, and that was only with summer squash.

I also used the same mix in 5 gallon buckets, and the plants grew well. I think his mix is better for traditional pots, but not earthtainer type selfwatering variety.

I have used Ray's 3:2:1 and it seems to work very well. With that you can use different potting mixes, just don't get the kind that have moisture control. I have used promix, walmart brand, and another brand (can't remember name), all with about equal results.

As far as bleach goes, you could use about 25% or more bleach to water. I usually wash mine, let them sit in the sun, and rinse later.

[creister]

Forgot, you could probably try the expanded shale for perlite, maybe try one or two containers with that, and some with the perlite, and see which does better, worse, or no difference. Expanded shale is larger diameter than perlite.

[DogsandDirt]

You guys really a wealth of knowledge and experience. Thanks again for the information.

I'll be using traditional containers for the fall since I don't trust myself with power tools. I'm hoping DH will help me build an Earthtainer for Christmas. In the meantime, it seems either the 3:2:1 or the 5:1:1 mix would work for traditional containers? Which has worked in your collective experience?