Help with understanding dehybridizing

[Stepheninky]

Ok I understand that when dehybridizing you save seed from the F1 hybrid (first generation) which is F2 seed (second generation) and that generation is self pollinated to get F3 seed (third generation) and you do this in till the desired traits stabilize and the plant characteristics and traits resemble the original F1 hybrid.

My question is I am planning to grow f2 from seeds saved from f1 beefmaster hybrid and I guess what I am trying to ask is out of your f2 and subsequent generations how do you select plants and do you save seed from only one plant or do you save seed from several of the F2 etc... ?

[heirloomdaddy]

Hey there.

1.The idea is to plant as many f2's as you can....you will get a vast array of different plants with different growth habits, fruit size/taste, foliage type, etc...

2. Save seed only from plants that have the characteristics that you're looking for and would like to pass on... Some save seed from a single fruit, but others advise that you should save seed from multiple fruits in order to reduce the likelihood of cross pollination of the flower with another plant. You can also bag your blossoms so that no insect or wind pollination of another plant is possible.

3. The F3 is another generation that you should try to get as many plants out as possible. The genes are still segregating heavily and the range of plants is still very wide.

4. continue until you have your new variety...it could be stable sooner or later than the f6 generation.

[Stepheninky]

Thanks that clears things up a bit for me,
So say I plant 15 - 30 f2's in a second garden plot I have so they are separate from other tomato varieties, I save seed only from the healthiest plants with best fruit size and production traits. I then will plant 15 - 30 F3 plants and just repeat the process.

At what point will I narrow seed selection from only one plant to grow on out or does it just depend on how long it takes to get a more stable result? Or do I just continue to grow out multiple plants through the process in till the off spring of those plants stabilize?

Sorry just trying to fully understand the concept as I figure this is something I will have to work towards for several years.

[heirloomdaddy]

At some point you of course have to narrow it down to one plant, but if you have the room, I say grow as many as you can until the f4 or f5. There are others here with more expertise than myself, but common sense says that the more plants you grow, the more likely you will find something excellent or something that is very close to what you're looking for.

[habitat_gardener]

Originally Posted by Stepheninky

... I save seed only from the healthiest plants with best fruit size and production traits...

I'd choose them based on taste first, then production.

[Stepheninky]

Originally Posted by habitat_gardener

I'd choose them based on taste first, then production.

LOL yea taste is very important factor for sure.

[Lee]

Depending on the parents of the hybrid, you may not get/see
much variation even in the F2. If the hybrid was made with
breeding lines that are both big red tomatoes with varying
disease tolerance in the two lines, you will probably only get
big/medium red tomatoes.

You should also figure out your goal from the beginning, so
that you have a clear idea of what to select for.

I'm sure others will chime in, but I suggest you go take a look at the Sneezy and Sleepy threads in the Dwarf tomato
project forum area. There you will see a clear progression of
varieties going from hybrid to stabilized OP, and all the results in between.

Lee

[Stepheninky]

Thanks Lee that suggestion and reading the various post helped me get some ideals of what I am looking to achieve with my Beefmaster project.

I know my finished plant should be a medium sized regular leaf , 6' to 8' tall plants red fruit with a classic beefsteak shape in the average size of around 12 oz + with a hopefully improved flavor.

I am only guessing here but would think the parentage of Beefmaster would be something along the lines of Big beef type crossed with a beefsteak type. I understand that there will be a lot of variation in the F2 and early generation plants so I guess since I am new at this mainly trying to get an ideal of what to look for in the way of potential in those plants. Or am I over thinking it and just need to select healthy plants with desirable traits to breed out and see where that leads.

For example in the Dwarf projects they had an ideal of what they were aiming for Example: Dwarf plant with PL and clear to light yellow fruit. In my project I would think some of my plant characteristics would be the dominate trait and not recessive such as indeterminate with RL red fruit color so I should have a wider selection to chose from my base plants. Correct?

[travis]

I'm not sure, but I think Beefmaster was introduced originally in 1971 as Beefeater, a Peto bred product, but had a name change due to obvious name conflict with a famous gin spirit.

I've seen Beefmaster alternately described in seed catalogs as determinate and indeterminate, but in any case it appears to be an F1 hybrid. Can you say whether what you grew was determinate or indeterminate, because that may be the first consideration you might give in selecting a line toward stabilization. However, I tend to believe Beefmaster is indeterminate.

Beefmaster also carries resistances for V, F race 1, and N according to most catalogs. I've also seen catalogs say it's resistance to gray leaf spot and crown wilt, so if those are a problem for you, you may want to observe the tolerance level of your selections for those diseases. If you are growing in sandy soils where nematodes are common, you may want to field test residual for N-resistance when selecting your line.

Sometimes breeders will use a breeding line with a pronounced nipple to prevent indented or deformed blossom scars in the F1 hybrid. This is seen in Celebrity, for example, and sometimes when you grow out the F2 seeds, you will get a reoccurance of this feature. Don't be alarmed or don't automatically discard such a plant, because it may develop into a nice appearance without catfacing or blossom end deformities as your dehybridization progresses.

I wouldn't necessarily concentrate on replicating the F1 hybrid as exactly as possible unless that is exactly what you want. Rather, I would select for flavor, production and vine health. It might also be beneficial to look for a growth habit that stays within the limits of whatever support system you use, like cages or stakes, and is adaptable to whatever other growing conditions you have, like containers, raised beds or whatever type of garden you have.

[Stepheninky]

Thanks Travis,

Yea the F1 I saved seed from is definitely indeterminate fruit has been spread out in till the recent heat caused the plant to slow down setting of new fruit. The parent plants I have were all over 7 foot tall and I have had a few that the branches bent at the top of the cage so tallest would have probably been 9ft or so if the weight of the fruit had not caused it to bend the branches.

I have two 25 x 30 garden plots to grow in. One of the plots I have raised up about 5-6 ft and the lower one tends to stay damp longer. I usually grow hardier crops like beans in the lower garden but thinking of using it for the majority of the F2 starts. Kinda like a trail by fire if that makes sense. Just the lower garden has more variables as it tend to be too wet in the start of the year and the soil is not as conditioned as the upper garden is.

[nctomatoman]

A few things to keep in mind. This is an interesting thread, by the way (figures I would think that...)

So, in dehybridizing, your goal can be trying to get an OP version (as close as possible) to the hybrid - or, in running through the various possibilities that pop in the F2 or F3 growouts, you may want to aim for something even better that you see.

The other point - and this is very notable in the case of Sungold - due to the particular genetics involved and parents used (and complexity of the F1), you may just not be able to find exactly the OP match to the hybrid. I don't think anyone can honestly tell you that any of the Sungold OP selections/offspring have the knock your socks off unique flavor of the hybrid.

Do keep us informed - it is always interesting to get a hint of what parents may be or creativity of the hybridizer in terms of seeing what sorts of things arise.

I grew out a few saved seed from Morteon, Jet Star and Supersonic hybrids a few years ago, and was somewhat disappointed to find that nothing showed up except rather unexciting medium sized red tomatoes!

[mjc]

If you can find the breeding history or what the parents (lines) are it will help a lot in trying to figure out exactly how much work is going to go into dehybridizing a particular variety. Also, if the variety is a true F1, you will have, usually, more work, than working with one that is a 'hybrid' (of undisclosed generation). By looking at lots of expired PVP certificates, I've found that there are quite a few 'hybrids' that have been dehybridized when they were finally released for bulking the seed quantities before commercial release, but still sold as hybrids, while the PVP is 'good' (not just tomatoes, but many other things, especially beans).