GRAFTING onto tomato rootstocks for resistance

mensplace · December 11, 2009

I am considering experimenting with some grafting of a few tomato varieties to a rootstock such as those which seem to be resistant to just about everything. First, to select that most hearty, most productive, disease resistant rootstock. I have read that in some countries this is a very popular practice in the commercial growing of tomatoes, both in the soil and hydroponically. Most of today's apples are grown on grafted rootstock. Any feedback from those who have already done this with the tomato? Your preferred rootstock? On the surface, it would seem as though this would greatly reduce the problems with disease, etc..

mensplace · December 11, 2009

Found this...an interesting video...the wmv format

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/g.../Grafting.html

Ross · December 11, 2009

Here's an article about grafting for some info. Nearer the bottom they refer to a PDF on this subject which is offered by Johnny's Seeds. Look at that too.

http://www.growingformarket.com/articles/20080526

Ross · December 11, 2009

O.k., another one.....

http://ag.arizona.edu/yavapai/anr/ho...gtomatoes.html

Wi-sunflower · December 11, 2009

There was a speach about that at the Mi conference I just got back from. I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it tho as I'm not interested in doing it. My notes are still out in the car so I'll post back when I can get to them.

What I remember tho is that you do need to pay attention to what you use for the rootstock since it will send a bit of it's qualities into the upper part of the plant. They showed a slide of a rootstock with the high anthrocyan that was sending the purplish up the stem. For some of the tests the choice of rootstock did seem to slow down or delay production a bit.

Carol

mensplace · December 11, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

There was a speach about that at the Mi conference I just got back from. I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it tho as I'm not interested in doing it. My notes are still out in the car so I'll post back when I can get to them.

What I remember tho is that you do need to pay attention to what you use for the rootstock since it will send a bit of it's qualities into the upper part of the plant. They showed a slide of a rootstock with the high anthrocyan that was sending the purplish up the stem. For some of the tests the choice of rootstock did seem to slow down or delay production a bit.

Carol

In some of my research on grafting I found that with some of the scion/stock combinations, the stock plant can indeed send such characteristics up to the first few inches, but after that, the influence of the stock contributing to actual fruiting seems to stop. From my experience with apples, the stock contributes to growth and hardiness, but the scion provides all of the fruiting characteristics. I honestly do not know with tomatoes, which was part of my interest in asking, but, it would seem that being as easy as it appears to be and that it is apparently widely used around the world in a commercial environment, there must be major benefits or the commercial growers would not be staking their success on proven benefits. It would seem that with many of us who have had problems with disease or such other factors that could be largely solved through such a simple excercise, it would be worth the wide experimentation. Now, I have to locate a source for those grafting clips. According to the video on the site I posted, the side graft would offer many "insurance" benefits in getting the graft started, but is more involved than a simple single stem graft. One thing that I did see in some experimenters work was that they tried to retain the roots of the stock and scion plants permanently. Do that and you would most negate the whole point of the grafting.

mensplace · December 11, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Here's an article about grafting for some info. Nearer the bottom they refer to a PDF on this subject which is offered by Johnny's Seeds. Look at that too.

http://www.growingformarket.com/articles/20080526

An excellent article. Apparently Johnny's carries one of the more widely used seed varieties for rootstock. One point of interest was the value of this as an alternative approach in sustainability. NOT a soil scientist, but one book that I read illustrated the concerns in introducing "foreign" microbes and other life forms such as various earthworm varieties into our soils that are not indiginous. Like many things, we don't always know the long term consequences. So much to learn and be considered.

Wi-sunflower · December 11, 2009

I'm not sure, but I think the speaker was from OSU and they have a couple of videos on doing the graft / splice. I think he said they were posted on youtube.

They are working on a simple graft using "superglue". No need for the clips then.

Carol

mensplace · December 11, 2009

Fascinating..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbV8hqraDsw

**carolyn137** · December 11, 2009

Carol knows that I know the person at the meeting that she referred to from Ohio State U who was no douobt the one showing pictures and discussing grafting.

Earlier this year someone from MO asked me about grafdting and I did extensive Googling and then checked with Dr. F. at OSU who has been experimenting with grafting.

While grafting is common in Australia and New Zeland there isn't that much of it that's done here. And I think the reason is that there is NO rootstock that has genes that can impart TOTAL RESISTANCE to ANY of the diseases that a particular root stock that one might be working with.

And most of the genes in the various root stocks are the same ones that are bred into certain of the F1 hybrid varieties already out there. And the best way of referring to their ability to resist disease I think is to use the word tolerance, and not resistance.

Several years ago some commercial farmers sued the companies that provided seed that were said to be resistant to this or that but that didn't turn out to be the case. As a result of the law suit the tomato industry in general suggested using the word tolerance and not resistance.

As I recall, Dr. F, ended up deciding that it was just as good to use an F1 hybrid tomato variety that had the tolerances needed for the diseases present in specific geographic locations, b'c he was doing trialing in more than one location, and use that as the rootstock .

The cost of seeds for Maxifort and others are terribly high. There was a fellow at GW a year or so ago who was asking folks to go in with him on the cost of rootstock seeds b'c of that.

I've never considered doing grafting at all, but I have read the feedback from several folks who have done it and I was not impressed with the feedback. Specifically, you only get a couple of more weeks growth with F1 hybrids that have certain tolerance genes bred in and the same goes for specific grafting. And that's fine for some commercial farmers b'c the extra couple of weeks allows for a higher Brix level, which is what they use to determine when mechanical harvesting should occur.

I don't see any advantage for the home gardener. Just my opinion/

Oh, and the person from MO decided not to go ahead after I gave him lots of links to various grafting articles.

Wi-sunflower · December 12, 2009

Another thing to consider when thinking about grafting is that it only helps with SOIL borne diseases. If FOLIAR diseases are your problem, grafting won't help at all.

Another issue with grafting is planting. You can't plant too deep and bury the graft and then lose the advantage of the graft. You can't plant too shallow or the graft can send out adventitious stems that will produce little green inedible fruit.

Sounds to me like paying attention to good growing practices is a lot more important and cost effective than grafting unless you are a mega commercial farmer.

JMO,
Carol

mensplace · December 12, 2009

Seems to me that grafting is but one more tool in the gardeners bag, not presented as a miracle worker, but I have grafted thousands of apple trees, enough to know the value of that tool in addressing far more than size of the tree. If it only takes a minute and does provide a degree of "tolerance" to soil borne problems, maybe that minute spent is worthy of further investigation and consideration. I have grown few heirlooms thus far and elected to stay with the newer hybrids. However, IF I could benefit from some of the hybrid tolerance, while still enjoying the heirloom flavor, that might be the very edge that could help some in soils that have been worked for hundreds of years, are more prone to drainage and compaction issues, and pose the yearly nematode and heat/humidity concerns that only make disease more of a challenge. My alma mater, NCSU, seems to think it worthwhile considering as do commercial growers around the world. Maybe not a cure all by any means, but in southern soils and growing conditions what it can offer as yet another tool, in combination with other sound cultivation practices seems worthy of some experimentation here.

**carolyn137** · December 12, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Another thing to consider when thinking about grafting is that it only helps with SOIL borne diseases. If FOLIAR diseases are your problem, grafting won't help at all.

Another issue with grafting is planting. You can't plant too deep and bury the graft and then lose the advantage of the graft. You can't plant too shallow or the graft can send out adventitious stems that will produce little green inedible fruit.

Sounds to me like paying attention to good growing practices is a lot more important and cost effective than grafting unless you are a mega commercial farmer.

JMO,
Carol

Carol, good point about grafting having nothing to do with grafting, which is for certain soil borne diseases known to be a problem in a specific region.

But I think mp also is aware of that b'c in his other thread here on diseases, which was slanted towards soil pathogen problems I wrote the following:

*****

It might be worth while for you to make a list of the diseases you know you have problems with, concentrating on those whose pathogens can be found in the soil, since soil seems to be your major concern. So that means IDing what are called the systemic diseases that you've had problems with or are known to be in your area.

Your local Cooperative extension might be of help in that regard. Once you know the specific pathogens that can be a problem in your own area, then I think you can more easily assess the various packaged amendments, whether biological or not, that might help if that's the route you wish to follow.

The foliage bad guys are a problem for almost everyone and the approach to prevention/control of those is usually different than the approach to the soil bad guys.

*****

So with that last comment I distinguished between the systemic diseases, mentioned in my first paragraph above, and the foliage diseases and since the foliage diseases are THE most common diseases everywhere, grafting is no solution to that major problem.

**carolyn137** · December 12, 2009

If it only takes a minute and does provide a degree of "tolerance" to soil borne problems, maybe that minute spent is worthy of further investigation and consideration. I have

*****

Theoretically yes, but it takes far more than a minute to do tomato grafting as I'm sure you've now seen from some of the links that folks have given you, which I must confess I didn't read b'c I'd read so many others in researching same for the person in MO.

And one still has the situation that has to be addressed as to whether or not grafting onto rootstock with the tolerant genes that are of use in your own area are going to give you a plant that is any different than growing a hybrid with the same tolerances as I mentioned above when talking about Dr. F's grafting results.

In the past there have been many folks from Australia in particular who have posted here about their experiences with buying grafted plants b'c that's almost the norm there and some of them said that they thought selling grafted plants was just a way for the sellers asking and getting more money for the plants.

While I've never personally grafted apples I tend to think it's perhaps easier working with a woody graft that with a soft tissue graft as one would with tomatoes.

The farm I was raised on had many orchards and every few years a man from a nursery in the western part of NYS would come and take scions from certain peach and apple trees in some of those orchards b'c some of them were quite rare, having been planted several decades in the past by my grandparents.

While I love the new Saturn white fleshed peaches I'd love to have those two white fleshed peach trees that were in the orchard nearest to the house, yes I would.

Of course it's your decision as to whether you want to experiment with grafting tomatoes to see if doing so really makes a difference in terms of the systemic diseases found in your own area, as opposed to the hybrids with the same tolerances that you say you have grown.

Aha, I forgot to say that as far as I know most of the grafting here in the US tends towards the large commercial farmer who is growing plants in greenhouses b'c I forget which rootstock it is that they prefer, but it also converts the plant to a much more compact plant habit which is useful with greenhouse growing. I know I had at least one link that compared the different rootstocks, not just for tolerances but also for plant habit changes, but perhaps that was included in the links already given to you.

RJ_Hythloday · December 12, 2009

I certainly agree about not being able to plant a grafted plant deep, losing some of the advantages of planting deep. If I was going to graft I'd use celebrity over some of the more expensive root stock. I've considered it, sounds fun and interesting. I'm hoping one of my horticulture classes will have it for a project.

December 11, 2009	#1
mensplace Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: USA Posts: 1,013	GRAFTING onto tomato rootstocks for resistance I am considering experimenting with some grafting of a few tomato varieties to a rootstock such as those which seem to be resistant to just about everything. First, to select that most hearty, most productive, disease resistant rootstock. I have read that in some countries this is a very popular practice in the commercial growing of tomatoes, both in the soil and hydroponically. Most of today's apples are grown on grafted rootstock. Any feedback from those who have already done this with the tomato? Your preferred rootstock? On the surface, it would seem as though this would greatly reduce the problems with disease, etc..

December 11, 2009	#10
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Carol knows that I know the person at the meeting that she referred to from Ohio State U who was no douobt the one showing pictures and discussing grafting. Earlier this year someone from MO asked me about grafdting and I did extensive Googling and then checked with Dr. F. at OSU who has been experimenting with grafting. While grafting is common in Australia and New Zeland there isn't that much of it that's done here. And I think the reason is that there is NO rootstock that has genes that can impart TOTAL RESISTANCE to ANY of the diseases that a particular root stock that one might be working with. And most of the genes in the various root stocks are the same ones that are bred into certain of the F1 hybrid varieties already out there. And the best way of referring to their ability to resist disease I think is to use the word tolerance, and not resistance. Several years ago some commercial farmers sued the companies that provided seed that were said to be resistant to this or that but that didn't turn out to be the case. As a result of the law suit the tomato industry in general suggested using the word tolerance and not resistance. As I recall, Dr. F, ended up deciding that it was just as good to use an F1 hybrid tomato variety that had the tolerances needed for the diseases present in specific geographic locations, b'c he was doing trialing in more than one location, and use that as the rootstock . The cost of seeds for Maxifort and others are terribly high. There was a fellow at GW a year or so ago who was asking folks to go in with him on the cost of rootstock seeds b'c of that. I've never considered doing grafting at all, but I have read the feedback from several folks who have done it and I was not impressed with the feedback. Specifically, you only get a couple of more weeks growth with F1 hybrids that have certain tolerance genes bred in and the same goes for specific grafting. And that's fine for some commercial farmers b'c the extra couple of weeks allows for a higher Brix level, which is what they use to determine when mechanical harvesting should occur. I don't see any advantage for the home gardener. Just my opinion/ Oh, and the person from MO decided not to go ahead after I gave him lots of links to various grafting articles. __________________ Carolyn

December 12, 2009	#14
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	If it only takes a minute and does provide a degree of "tolerance" to soil borne problems, maybe that minute spent is worthy of further investigation and consideration. I have ***** Theoretically yes, but it takes far more than a minute to do tomato grafting as I'm sure you've now seen from some of the links that folks have given you, which I must confess I didn't read b'c I'd read so many others in researching same for the person in MO. And one still has the situation that has to be addressed as to whether or not grafting onto rootstock with the tolerant genes that are of use in your own area are going to give you a plant that is any different than growing a hybrid with the same tolerances as I mentioned above when talking about Dr. F's grafting results. In the past there have been many folks from Australia in particular who have posted here about their experiences with buying grafted plants b'c that's almost the norm there and some of them said that they thought selling grafted plants was just a way for the sellers asking and getting more money for the plants. While I've never personally grafted apples I tend to think it's perhaps easier working with a woody graft that with a soft tissue graft as one would with tomatoes. The farm I was raised on had many orchards and every few years a man from a nursery in the western part of NYS would come and take scions from certain peach and apple trees in some of those orchards b'c some of them were quite rare, having been planted several decades in the past by my grandparents. While I love the new Saturn white fleshed peaches I'd love to have those two white fleshed peach trees that were in the orchard nearest to the house, yes I would. Of course it's your decision as to whether you want to experiment with grafting tomatoes to see if doing so really makes a difference in terms of the systemic diseases found in your own area, as opposed to the hybrids with the same tolerances that you say you have grown. Aha, I forgot to say that as far as I know most of the grafting here in the US tends towards the large commercial farmer who is growing plants in greenhouses b'c I forget which rootstock it is that they prefer, but it also converts the plant to a much more compact plant habit which is useful with greenhouse growing. I know I had at least one link that compared the different rootstocks, not just for tolerances but also for plant habit changes, but perhaps that was included in the links already given to you. __________________ Carolyn

December 11, 2009	#3
Ross Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 15	Here's an article about grafting for some info. Nearer the bottom they refer to a PDF on this subject which is offered by Johnny's Seeds. Look at that too. http://www.growingformarket.com/articles/20080526

December 11, 2009	#5
Wi-sunflower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 2,591	There was a speach about that at the Mi conference I just got back from. I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it tho as I'm not interested in doing it. My notes are still out in the car so I'll post back when I can get to them. What I remember tho is that you do need to pay attention to what you use for the rootstock since it will send a bit of it's qualities into the upper part of the plant. They showed a slide of a rootstock with the high anthrocyan that was sending the purplish up the stem. For some of the tests the choice of rootstock did seem to slow down or delay production a bit. Carol

December 12, 2009	#15
RJ_Hythloday Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Logan, UT Posts: 207	I certainly agree about not being able to plant a grafted plant deep, losing some of the advantages of planting deep. If I was going to graft I'd use celebrity over some of the more expensive root stock. I've considered it, sounds fun and interesting. I'm hoping one of my horticulture classes will have it for a project.