Tomatoville® Gardening Forums


Notices

Member discussion regarding the methods, varieties and merits of growing tomatoes.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 18, 2012   #1
TnMurph
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: NW Tn
Posts: 8
Default Does Glysophate (roundup) harm anything in the soil?

I am planting into a new garden area this year and would like to know if spraying roundup before putting in tomatoes harms anything other than the weeds. I want to preserve all the microbes and other beneficial critters in the soil, but the garden area was basically part of a pasture up until now. I know I'm going to have a serious battle against weeds for a long time, but would like to give them a dose before planting starts. I sprayed gly once last year and a combination of gly and clethodim once last year trying to kill the bermuda.

Thanks for your help!
TnMurph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18, 2012   #2
Sun City Linda
Tomatovillian™
 
Sun City Linda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SoCal Inland
Posts: 2,705
Default

I think it kills earthworms. Dont know about microbes.
Sun City Linda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19, 2012   #3
Tracydr
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Laurinburg, North Carolina, zone 7
Posts: 3,207
Default

If you're dealing with Bermuda and not worried about organic, you probably want to do the round-up. Maybe reseed the worms and microbes with some worm compost afterwards.
Tracydr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19, 2012   #4
carolyn137
Moderator Emeritus
 
carolyn137's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
Default

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question357.htm

If you Google Roundup there are so many links it will make your head spin, but I chose the one above to make a simple point.

Glyphosphate kills only plants of all kinds, be they weeds, poison ivy, yes tomato plants, or whatever, that are growing plants b'c it inhibits an enzyme that's necessary for plant growth.

It's the most commonly used herbicide in the world and lots of data is known about it if you want to do a search.

I've used it a couple of times with excellent results but you want to be sure to use it when there is no wind drift. One time I used it when a group of Master Gardeners were coming to my tomato field for a demonstartion day and it was the easiest way to get rid of the weeds in betwen the rows.

And the second time was here where I now live and no problems at all, As I recall it has a short half life so the glyphosphate doesn't stay long in the environment as do some other herbicides.
__________________
Carolyn
carolyn137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19, 2012   #5
mcsee
Tomatovillian™
 
mcsee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria. Australia
Posts: 543
Default

It's probably a good thing with Poisons/Herbicides etc to download the MSDS sheets which will give you the information on Worm safety etc.

Browsing the Internet will give you a myriad of 'evils' associated with Glyphosate, some maybe true, some not.
mcsee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19, 2012   #6
b54red
Tomatovillian™
 
b54red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alabama
Posts: 7,068
Default

I use it occasionally and have found no reduction in the number of earthworms. One spraying will not get rid of Bermuda grass in my experience. I have nutgrass in one bed and have to use it because no mulch short of 6 inches of concrete will stop that stuff. It is effective in killing it back but I still have a problem with it. That bed is also the one that gets the most Round Up and is also my most productive bed so I don't think it is hurting the tomatoes but if you happen to let it drift onto them it will kill them much better than it will kill Bermuda grass.
b54red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19, 2012   #7
RebelRidin
Tomatovillian™
 
RebelRidin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Maryland's Eastern Shore
Posts: 993
Default

Roundup works pretty well with reasonable safety. I have used it around the garden and our home off and on for many years. So long as you heed Carolyn's advice about wind/drift and apply label rate you should get good results. You would have to seriously overdose to significantly affect your soil organisms.

I remember when Roundup was first introduced in the early/mid seventies. It was revolutionary. It was considered by many farmers to be an absolute godsend at the time, even at the then astronomical price of $85/gallon.

In the midwest it was being applied in corn fields using homemade rope wick applicators to combat Johnson grass. I got to build such a homemade applicator when I worked as a summer assistant on a wildlife management area and I have since used it with a hand held ropewick I made to kill dandelions in lawns.

You won't find much information on rope wick applicators now. I find it a shame that such pragmatic concerns as finding the best use for the product were dwarfed by desires to create new uses for it (aka "Roundup Ready"). Still, IMHO Roundup remains the best compared to the other options available for most uses, particulalry around the home.
__________________

George
_____________________________

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."
Thomas Jefferson, 1787
RebelRidin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19, 2012   #8
fortyonenorth
Tomatovillian™
 
fortyonenorth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 1,150
Default

This article appeared in Acres USA last year. I read it at the time and remember it to be very interesting.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/artm...2011_Huber.pdf
fortyonenorth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19, 2012   #9
bughunter99
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: zone 5
Posts: 821
Default

Interesting article. This part in particular. I had no idea that it could reactivate and adversely affect the crops you were trying to help in the first place.

We do know that even though it’s immobilized rapidly in most soils it can then be reactivated or desorbed and reactivated to damage future crops.
ACRES U.S.A. What must happen to reactivate it?
HUBER. One of the things that’s recently
been shown to do this is to apply phosphorus fertilizer on the crop. From a nutritional standpoint, it can actually desorb the glyphosate so that it’s again reactivated as an active chemical for plant uptake and damage.
ACRES U.S.A. Has this been demonstrated
by researchers to impact the crops when it’s desorbed?
HUBER. Yes. That can be quite damaging
to the crop and actually limit uptake of nutrients required by the crop as much as 60 to 70 percent, and that’s pretty much across the board.
bughunter99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19, 2012   #10
tam91
Tomatovillian™
 
tam91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Crystal Lake IL
Posts: 2,484
Default

If I am remembering correctly, one thing about Roundup is - it says most things can be planted after a couple days, but to plant tomatoes in the area, you need to wait 30 days. So if that is still on the label, you need to use it well in advance.
I have used Roundup to prepare a garden, everything worked out fine.
__________________
Tracy
tam91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19, 2012   #11
amideutch
Tomatovillian™
 
amideutch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Germany 49°26"N 07°36"E
Posts: 5,041
Default

I did a google on the following topic concerning RoundUp (Glyphosate)

"Effects of glyphosate on rhizosphere soil microbial communities"

Here are some excerpts from different articles. Ami

Reports show that glyphosate imposes diverse effects on
the biology and ecology of rhizosphere microorganisms and on
their interactions with plant roots when released into the rhizosphere.
Although the interactions suggest a “secondary mode
of action” of glyphosate by pre-disposing susceptible plants to
microbial infection (Johal and Rahe, 1984), the potential for developing
critical pathogen inocula levels in soils that affect crop
health, altering rhizosphere microbial communities involved in
nutrient transformations, and shifting the balance of beneficial
and detrimental plant-associated microorganisms are legitimate
concerns regarding the impact of glyphosate on crop productivity
and environmental sustainability. This is especially significant
with consideration to the current widespread use of glyphosate in
glyphosate-resistant (GR) cropping systems.

Glyphosate reduces nitrogen fixation by several mechanisms. Nitrogen-fixing bacteria such as the soybean symbiont, Bradyrhizobioum japonicum, possess a glypohsate-sensitive EPSPS, and hence fail to grow when exposed to glyphosate.

Some 40 diseases are known to be increased in weed control programmes with glyphosate and the list is growing [1, 12], affecting a wide range of species: apples, bananas, barley, bean, canola, citrus, cotton, grape, melon, soybean, sugar beet, sugarcane, tomato and wheat.

Diseases caused by the fungus Fusarium have increased with the extensive use of glyphosate [12]. For example, glyphosate use predisposes tomatoes to Fusarium crown and root rot.

Research published in 1979 already showed that glyphosate absorbed through plant foliage after application was transported systemically toward the roots and eventually released into the rhizopshere [15] where it changes the whole ecology of the soil, resulting in increased colonisation of plant roots by pathogenic species such as Fusarium and Phytophorthora, as well as Pythium in bean plants.
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting ‘...Holy Crap .....What a ride!'
amideutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19, 2012   #12
carolyn137
Moderator Emeritus
 
carolyn137's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
Default

If you've been following farming news or the genetically modified food debate, you know that glyphosphate-tolerant seeds are now available -- you can buy genetically modified corn, soybeans, etc. that are immune to glyphosphate. These plants produce an enzyme that performs the same function as EPSP synthase but is not inhibited by glyphosphate.

...... cut and pasted from the article I linked to above.

I think one should not compare large scale commercial farmers who do use lots of glyphosphate based herbicides and those who plant glyphosphate tolerant GMO's from the majority of us who post here who are backyard, sometimes small field hobby gardeners who wouold in no way use the amount of glyphosphate that the commercial folks do.

And much of the literature that has been linked to or alluded to here is from data obtained by study of commercial fields. In the past I reviewed some of those scientific reports and agree that when glyphosphate is sprayed on everything in a field, plants and ground as well, that there might be, could be , deleterious results.

No, I'm not a pro Monsanto person although Scotts holds the license now, I'm just trying to make some suggestions about where the info comes from, and compare large scale use on crop plants and the soil as well, with or without GMO's, with what some of us might use it for on a very infrequent basis.
__________________
Carolyn
carolyn137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2012   #13
amideutch
Tomatovillian™
 
amideutch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Germany 49°26"N 07°36"E
Posts: 5,041
Default

Quote:
I think one should not compare large scale commercial farmers who do use lots of glyphosphate based herbicides and those who plant glyphosphate tolerant GMO's from the majority of us who post here who are backyard, sometimes small field hobby gardeners who wouold in no way use the amount of glyphosphate that the commercial folks do.
I think the point is that studies have shown that Glyphosphate does create problems with plant-associated microorganisms in the soil and this is why Dr. Huber is raising the flag and saying we need to reevaluate this product and conduct more studies.

The application of Glyphosphate (RoundUp) has nothing to do with the size of the growing area whether it be a square foot garden or a several thousand acre commercial farm as the end result will be the same and that being it does cause problems with the microorganisms in the soil.

I can see to a certain extent why commercial farmers are using the product due to increased production and lower costs but for hobby gardeners I can't see any justification unless they are unable or just to lazy to pull weeds out of their gardens. Ami
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting ‘...Holy Crap .....What a ride!'
amideutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2012   #14
RebelRidin
Tomatovillian™
 
RebelRidin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Maryland's Eastern Shore
Posts: 993
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amideutch View Post
... I think the point is that studies have shown that Glyphosphate does create problems with plant-associated microorganisms in the soil and this is why Dr. Huber is raising the flag and saying we need to reevaluate this product and conduct more studies.

The application of Glyphosphate (RoundUp) has nothing to do with the size of the growing area whether it be a square foot garden or a several thousand acre commercial farm as the end result will be the same and that being it does cause problems with the microorganisms in the soil.

I can see to a certain extent why commercial farmers are using the product due to increased production and lower costs but for hobby gardeners I can't see any justification unless they are unable or just to lazy to pull weeds out of their gardens. Ami The application of Glyphosphate (RoundUp) has nothing to do with the size of the growing area whether it be a square foot garden or a several thousand acre commercial farm as the end result will be the same and that being it does cause problems with the microorganisms in the soil.

I can see to a certain extent why commercial farmers are using the product due to increased production and lower costs but for hobby gardeners I can't see any justification unless they are unable or just to lazy to pull weeds out of their gardens. Ami

...
Respectfully, I have to disagree.

In that article Dr. Huber states that there is a belief that some problems in livestock traced to a newly identified pathogen being found in livestock feeds can be traced to what he believes to be a naturally occurring and normally benign organism that has taken advantage of genetic susceptibilities in plants created by the widespread use of glyphosate tolerant Genetically Modified Organisms in commercial agriculture.

He also inidcated that the degredation profile of glyphosate varies by soil type. Under some conditions it can build up in the soil. That can cause problems and needs further research as it can cause problems for susequent crops in th event of reactivation. Additionally it has various biocidal properties on organisms in the soil, the potential implications of which need more study.

Dr. Huber said and touched on a number of things and issues in that article, mostly indicating the need for more secure research funding and more prudence and caution in regulatory decisions regarding GMO. The problems they are seeing are symptoms of conditions facilitated by glyphosate resistant GMOs.

GMO is the catalyst. Remove GMO and you select some other alternative. Combine GMO with any other insecticide/herbicide/fungicide, etc. ... well I postulate that you will end up in a similar place of unforeseen consequences, some good and some bad, both of which are subjective judgements.

There is no clear cut right or wrong here, only choices (IMHO that is...)
__________________

George
_____________________________

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."
Thomas Jefferson, 1787
RebelRidin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2012   #15
amideutch
Tomatovillian™
 
amideutch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Germany 49°26"N 07°36"E
Posts: 5,041
Default

Quote:
A number of soil microbi­ologists are all reporting the same type of impact on the soil biology. One paper mentions that it’s a very powerful herbi­cide, but also a very potent biocide. It’s a little bit selective in that it stimulates some soil organisms and is very toxic to other organisms. It’s toxic to your legume module bacteria for nitrogen fixation, also quite toxic to the organ­isms that make manganese and iron available for plant uptake, and those are critical nutrients. It stimulates the soil pathogens that do the killing from a weed control standpoint, but it also stimulates some so that you’re essentially making a super-pathogen to kill a weed. Then you leave that super-pathogen in the soil, which also attacks other plants later on in the rotation.
This is the statement I was referencing to in Dr. Hubers interview. Ami
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting ‘...Holy Crap .....What a ride!'
amideutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:27 PM.


★ Tomatoville® is a registered trademark of Commerce Holdings, LLC ★ All Content ©2022 Commerce Holdings, LLC ★