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Old September 14, 2017   #16
Fred Hempel
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Crossers cross. I'll definitely play around some. But this is a back-burner type of project for me.

Maglia Rosa fits the bill for some farmers, but it is the only finished tomato of mine that comes close to filling this niche.

The more immediate goal is to help my friends. I have had some lines that more or less fit what they want (gourmet fruit + plants that can be grown somewhat reasonably without trellising). My lines are the by-product of my other efforts, and most of them have been identified in their fields in screens of my segregating F3 and F4 lines.

That said, I have heard a number of other farmers say they have this type of tomato on their wish list. It might work in California better than in other places (arid summers).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilaGardener View Post
Fred probably is planning to cross them in any case.
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Old September 14, 2017   #17
Fred Hempel
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For my collaborators and myself, "heirloom" is not a priority. Gourmet quality fruit is a priority, combined with traits that are important for production.

The older I get, the less I worship "old" things...

Any input you might have would be greatly appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post
You might want to contact Glenn as Sand Hill Preservation Center. There was a post by Carolyn I read awhile back about his interest in determinate varieties and he has preserved many old commercial varieties. He might have a good answer to some varieties that fit your criteria.

$$$$$$$$

Fred, when I get a chance I'll take a look at Glenn's current offerings and get back to you here.

Does it make a difference to you if a variety is an heirloom,which takes it back to about pre 1940,or otherwise.

Carolyn
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Old September 15, 2017   #18
salix
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Fred, some of the Dwarf Project releases may be suitable. I do cage mine and use a stake to keep the cage secure, but pretty sure they don't really need it... They are such sturdy plants, and productive too. Yesterday I removed all the fruits from 15 plants. One 3 ft. plant had over 80 fruits, ranging from 2 to 8 ounces, average about 4. Another plant was closer to 4 feet, and had almost 60 fruits, averaging 5 ounces. When they ripen (indoors), I am sure they will be good flavoured, based on last year's results.
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Old September 15, 2017   #19
carolyn137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilaGardener View Post
Fred probably is planning to cross them in any case.
Could be, but he clarified that in subsequent posts here.

(A farm I collaborate with wants to move from completely trellised tomatoes to all determinate "no-stake" growing.)

He subsequently said he might fool around with some suggestions, but it was what he called, I think, a side issue for him.

He was just trying to help out someone else and that was his priority.

Carolyn
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Old September 15, 2017   #20
Salsacharley
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Homestead is a semi-determinate I grew one year that was ok, and a reasonable candidate for sprawling.

Joseph here on TV selects and grows for sprawling tomatoes for his farm in Utah. I grew a couple of his experimental varieties a couple of years ago. They were OK, but I look for "amazing".

I think Marzano Fire would do as well as any others I am aware of.
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Old September 15, 2017   #21
Pamela58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salix View Post
Fred, some of the Dwarf Project releases may be suitable. I do cage mine and use a stake to keep the cage secure, but pretty sure they don't really need it... They are such sturdy plants, and productive too. Yesterday I removed all the fruits from 15 plants. One 3 ft. plant had over 80 fruits, ranging from 2 to 8 ounces, average about 4. Another plant was closer to 4 feet, and had almost 60 fruits, averaging 5 ounces. When they ripen (indoors), I am sure they will be good flavoured, based on last year's results.
What dwarfs do you have?
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Old September 15, 2017   #22
oakley
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If I had a similar question I would consult.....Fred Hempel.
And a dozen others come to mind. FrogsLeap, ?, not sure what
they have going this season.

Guessing that's why they asked Fred.

Where I grew up, EasternShore, un-staked and field grown is
most common. As well as NewEngland. New Jersey, HudsonValley
NY, etc. I do see low, far apart staking now, with one string,
like a low Florida weave?, to help
keep the isles clear and maybe allows closer spacing.

I always get more questions about why I trellis over not.
Trial more varieties closer together is one reason of many...
(bamboo teepee style, tied together across the top for high winds)
Can't stake because of the rocks. The 4x4 fence posts took a
back hoe to excavate deep enough. A few did heave after all.

I put in some field rows 5-6 yrs ago. 3 30ft runs. Not a business
farm here, just family. Plan was to trial for our garden in
Newfoundland. Ended up with a long run of rhubarb, tomatillos
and sunflowers. Then 2015 i did the middle run of tomatoes
in place of the tomatillos after some research.

Taxi, Clair'sTom, (aka I've forgotten), and Wippersnapper. (sp)
The spreading out was massive, though not so much Taxi.
Like pickin' strawberries, ugh.

Sat covered 2016 and this season. Knowing what I know now
having grown MagliaRosa and some Brad Gates varieties, and now
my first year in the dwarf project, 2018 can't come soon enough.

I have 38 deck fabric pots, one and two gallon. Started with 52
but most of those composted were micro winter grown.
*next year 2 gal minimum, 5 gal nursery for most.

Two released Dwarfs, TennSuited and KangarooPawBrown, are
excellent. The rest are project F2 and 3 and hunts.
4 of the 16 project dwarfs I've saved seeds. One still not quite
ripe is larger than golfball and full of stripes. Another has fruit in
a tight cluster of 5-6, pale white/yellow, large egg shaped.

Compact plants, good foliage cover, and fits the 'exotic' category.

I know now what you have experienced in the past. Watching
what happens after crossing and anticipating the surprises. I've only had one spitter and a few so-so bland. Like Christmas morn
every day just outside my kitchen door where for years
I just had herbs on the deck.
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Old September 15, 2017   #23
Gerardo
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Some of Andrey's Siberian tomatoes fit the bill. I really like Gribovsky, good shelf life, productive, tolerates cold, no splitting ever, can do without staking, and the flavor is good to great when all cylinders are firing. . fruit size is 75-150 grams. Alc1gene plays a major role with Gribovsky.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com/w/im...kiy_Plant1.jpg

Last edited by Gerardo; September 15, 2017 at 01:47 PM.
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Old September 15, 2017   #24
Fred Hempel
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Lots of good info. Will summarize over the weekend.
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Old September 15, 2017   #25
carolyn137
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For those who suggested that some of the Dwarf Project ones might work well, I had a hard time finding this but eventually did ,where it shows that not all dwarf project ones are determinate.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...t=chateau+Laye

Fred, I have my 2017 Sand Hill Preservation catalog and hope to go through it to see what I can find for you.I'd rather do it this way rather than trying to kick start my brain for suggestions,since I know I'll run into most of them when looking at the catalog,since in the past I've sent huge numbers of varieties to Glenn.

Of course there are many many hundreds he lists that have nothing to do with what I sent,so we shall see.

Carolyn
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Old September 17, 2017   #26
frogsleap farm
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I've had luck in crosses of our lines to determinate commercial hybrids. I made the crosses to introgress multiple disease resistance, but I am also finding segregants with great flavor and much more compact plant habit. Staking is still necessary, but the plants stay in the 3-4 ft range.
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Old September 17, 2017   #27
carolyn137
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Fred, I started looking for you for possible varieties, but I'm hung up on the word gourmet.

I know what I like in terms of great tasting, but one person loving a variety is usually balanced off with another person growing the same variety and saying never would grow it again.

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Old September 17, 2017   #28
Nan_PA_6b
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Well, perhaps something with "bush" in the name?

http://tatianastomatobase.com/w/inde...ecial%3ASearch

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Old September 17, 2017   #29
Worth1
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I consider gourmet anything other than store bought cultivars with no flavor whatsoever.
Went it comes to tomatoes and many other foods many of us go well beyond what a gourmet ever thought about being.

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Old September 17, 2017   #30
Fred Hempel
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Gourmet = top 20% flavor, as judged by consensus

ie. Cherokee Purple, Sungold, Sudduth's Brandywine, Little Lucky, Momotaro etc.
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