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Old January 21, 2017   #31
Gardeneer
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Wrong lesson. I said I saw no difference with Big Beef as the root stock. That is not true of all root stock. Multifort and Maxifort will produce much larger plants than the original scion variety most of the time. There are always exceptions with any combinations used in grafting. Estamino is said to not be very vegetative but I find the plants a good bit larger and more vigorous with most varieties grafted to it but not all. I will be dead long before I figure out all the different combos and how they work together with just my favored varieties so I will leave that up to others to figure out. I have noticed that some combos work extremely well together. I'll list them below but there are no guarantees that you will get the same results I got.

Indian Stripe PL/ RST-106-04-T
Limbaugh's Legacy/RST-106-04-T
Donskoi/RST-106-04-T or Multifort or Estamino
Spudakee/RST-106-04-T
Red Barn/RST-106-04-T or Estamino
Couilles de Taureau/RST-106-04-T
Brandywine Cowlick's/ RST-106-04-T or Estamino
Brandywine Sudduth's/ RST-106-04-T or Estamino
Arkansas Traveler/ RST-106-04-T
Giant Belgium/ RST-106-04-T or Multifort
Barlow Jap// RST-106-04-T or Multifort
Virginia Sweet/ Multifort/or RST-106-04-T
Delicious/ Multifort or Estamino
Neves Azorean Red/ Multifort

I'm still trying to decide on which combos work the best on some of the others but as you can see the ones that have shown a definite compatibility with a root stock that the root stock is more often RST-106-04-T. So when in doubt I used it with most of my grafts last year and was not disappointed with the results from most of them. If my goal was huge robust plants with larger fruits I would probably use Estamino or Multifort more but I prefer the results with RST-106-04-T with most of the scion varieties.

Bill
Can I get a grade "D" on this lesson ?
So where does the boost in scion size come from, other that the root system ? Does root stock's genetics play a role ?
In effect ( as I see it ) the root stock is just a disease resistance/tolerance root , maybe a stronger root system to go with that. .
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Old January 22, 2017   #32
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Can I get a grade "D" on this lesson ?
So where does the boost in scion size come from, other that the root system ? Does root stock's genetics play a role ?
In effect ( as I see it ) the root stock is just a disease resistance/tolerance root , maybe a stronger root system to go with that. .
I get a grade F for typing out the RST-04-106-T wrong the first time then repeating that error by copy and pasting it over and over and over again in the last post I made.

I am sure the root system has an affect in overall plant size to some degree but I get very large root systems with RST-04-106-T but not overly large plants. I think the DNA of the root system must affect the growth rate of the grafted plant in some way. Some varieties when grafted to some root stock takeoff like they are on steroids while others grow normally or even slower than normal. I think that may have something to do with the compatibility of the two different plants; but I am no scientist. Maybe someone with more knowledge in this field will step in and confuse me more.

Just joking but I really don't have any idea scientifically what is happening with grafted plants but I am delighted that whatever it is it helps with my fusarium wilt problem. It gives me plants that last a long time in a usually healthy state leaving me time to devote myself to fighting foliage diseases and pests. Three years ago and 2 years ago I really maintained my first two plantings just to see how long I could keep them alive. I kept them sprayed and never let up on the pruning and supporting. I was surprised that I could still make fruit at the ends of plants with stems exceeding 25 feet. I believe that over half of the original plants set out the first day were still producing when they froze both years. Last year I decided that maintaining a bunch of plants with stems that long was just too much work for what you got. As any of you know eventually a plant starts putting out smaller and smaller fruit the longer the stem gets even though you still get an occasional large fruit. I decided to just stop caring for them and pull them up once my later plantings were putting out at a nice pace. I did six separate plantings last year staggered from early March through late July. At the end of the season I still had my last three plantings producing fruit but most were coming off the last two plantings near the end.

I did grow out a Multifort one year just to see what would happen. The thing grew like it had a fertilizer IV pumping nitrogen into it. After watching it grow for a few weeks I could see what they meant by vegetative growth. I have never seen anything put on more suckers that fast while each growth tip seemed to jump by six inches daily. I let it develop 6 main stems and tried to keep it supported on a 7 ft tall fence. I found it too much work trying to pinch all the suckers after a week or two and started removing whole main stems and finally pulled the monster to stop it.

Bill
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Old January 22, 2017   #33
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I keep reading that the products of the scion are genetically the same as if the plant weren't grafted. I'm sure there's a research project in there somewhere, but I would guess that if the rootstock were especially vigorous, efficient (with water and nutrient uptake) and didn't have to contend with the challenges of a less vigorous rootstock, it would result in the rest of the plant producing more vegetatively and reproductively.
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Old January 22, 2017   #34
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I have a question for Bill (or anyone else with experience). When you do your grafting, how many do you make at one time? Since I'm new to this, I can either try grafting 'a bunch' and hope I'm doing it right (maybe losing the whole lot of them), OR, I could do fewer at once and see how it goes. If I lose just those few, I figure perhaps I could have some success with a little larger plants and a different approach a week or so later. What do you think?

Cheers,

Adam
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Old January 22, 2017   #35
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I have 50 rootstock seeds and I'm doing 12 at a time. If the first 12 die I will likely practice with other varieties before trying with my rootstock seedlings again. I'm aiming for 50% success rate for my first try, but from what I have read/heard 20% is closer to the average for newbies.
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Old January 22, 2017   #36
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My RST-04-106-T seeds arrived. I'm not sure I need to use all of them this year.

Has anyone used year-old seed? Was there much of a decrease in germination?

Jeff
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Old January 22, 2017   #37
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I have a question for Bill (or anyone else with experience). When you do your grafting, how many do you make at one time? Since I'm new to this, I can either try grafting 'a bunch' and hope I'm doing it right (maybe losing the whole lot of them), OR, I could do fewer at once and see how it goes. If I lose just those few, I figure perhaps I could have some success with a little larger plants and a different approach a week or so later. What do you think?

Cheers,

Adam
I usually do enough for one whole humidity chamber which is just a clear plastic storage box from Walmart with a clear lid and clasp closure. Most of the chambers I have will hold between 24 and 28 plants so that they are held in place by each other so if I move the chamber I don't have to worry about them falling over and ruining the graft. The first week I graft I will usually do between 50 and 100 grafts and sometimes even more. When it comes to plant out time I just give away the extras. I try to do several of each combination because I never know where the failures will be. With my very favorite varieties I usually do at least 5 each of them so that I will have multiple plants to set out of those varieties.

Bill
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Old January 22, 2017   #38
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My RST-04-106-T seeds arrived. I'm not sure I need to use all of them this year.

Has anyone used year-old seed? Was there much of a decrease in germination?

Jeff
There was some this year as I had quite a few left from last year but surprisingly my germination rate was still high. Not as high as my new seed that arrived a month ago but I would say around 90%. It is surprising because of the small size of most of the seeds that are root stock seed. I also germinated some of my old Multifort and Estamino seed which were 4 and 3 years old and got about 75% with them. I keep my seed inside an air conditioned house except while planting them. I found out the hard way many years ago that leaving them in my shed was a recipe for low germination the next year.

Bill
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Old January 22, 2017   #39
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Thank you for the information Bill.

Jeff
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Old January 22, 2017   #40
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As a first time grafter, for each plant I want to set out, how many root stock and scion seeds should I start?

This is what I'm grappling with right now.

With non-grafted plants, I was down to two starting two seeds for every plant and almost always had two seedlings to choose from at plant out time.

I have plenty of scion seeds and a good number of rootstock seeds, I just don't want to have a ton of extra seedlings that have to get tossed in the compost bin. But then everyone says to expect a higher failure rate with first-time grafts.
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Old January 23, 2017   #41
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Originally Posted by b54red View Post
I usually do enough for one whole humidity chamber which is just a clear plastic storage box from Walmart with a clear lid and clasp closure. Most of the chambers I have will hold between 24 and 28 plants so that they are held in place by each other so if I move the chamber I don't have to worry about them falling over and ruining the graft. The first week I graft I will usually do between 50 and 100 grafts and sometimes even more. When it comes to plant out time I just give away the extras. I try to do several of each combination because I never know where the failures will be. With my very favorite varieties I usually do at least 5 each of them so that I will have multiple plants to set out of those varieties.

Bill
Bill, how deep the clear plastic box is that you are using ? and for how long your grafted work stay in the box ? I might try just a few , as exercise , this first round of my germination. Then I might try few more the next round, more seriously. I will just use Big Beef as root stock. I have some Big Boy and Better boy seeds. Are they any good for root stock ? (VFN ??).
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Old January 24, 2017   #42
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Bill, how deep the clear plastic box is that you are using ? and for how long your grafted work stay in the box ? I might try just a few , as exercise , this first round of my germination. Then I might try few more the next round, more seriously. I will just use Big Beef as root stock. I have some Big Boy and Better boy seeds. Are they any good for root stock ? (VFN ??).
Just went out and measured my healing chambers and they are about 10 1/2 inches deep. I wish they were a little bit deeper. If I ever run across any with a nice flat bottom that are clear and deeper I will get them. Usually the deeper ones are just too large unless you are grafting a whole lot of plants at once and space in not an object.

Usually they are in the box about a week but some of that is with the lid opened up a bit. Depending on how well they are doing and the weather they might come out much earlier or a bit later.

Never used Big Boy or Better Boy as root stock but they should do fine. I think they have moderate soil born disease resistance but I'm not sure. Just for practicing any tomato will do. I used IS one time and they did great but I didn't plant them because they really don't have much disease tolerance like most heirlooms.

Just checked my root stock seedlings and my scion seedlings that were planted a week earlier. The root stock seedlings have caught them and some are actually larger than my scions. Next time I may wait a full 10 days between planting them.

Bill
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Old January 24, 2017   #43
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Just went out and measured my healing chambers and they are about 10 1/2 inches deep. I wish they were a little bit deeper. If I ever run across any with a nice flat bottom that are clear and deeper I will get them. Usually the deeper ones are just too large unless you are grafting a whole lot of plants at once and space in not an object.

Usually they are in the box about a week but some of that is with the lid opened up a bit. Depending on how well they are doing and the weather they might come out much earlier or a bit later.

Never used Big Boy or Better Boy as root stock but they should do fine. I think they have moderate soil born disease resistance but I'm not sure. Just for practicing any tomato will do. I used IS one time and they did great but I didn't plant them because they really don't have much disease tolerance like most heirlooms.

Just checked my root stock seedlings and my scion seedlings that were planted a week earlier. The root stock seedlings have caught them and some are actually larger than my scions. Next time I may wait a full 10 days between planting them.

Bill
Thanks Bill. This answers my question well.
The reason I ask is that I have a small clear plastic box of about 12" tall. It can accommodate about a dozen 4" pots. That should be enough for my experimental grafting intention.
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Old January 25, 2017   #44
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Go to; agsyst.wsu.edu/graftingVegetables.html . Just stumbled on it in a search best advice and detailed videos I have seen anywhere.Grafting techniques, how to build healing chamber and day by day schedule on removing from chamber and more.
I think anyone could learn from it.
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Old January 25, 2017   #45
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That is a much better explanation than most of the others I have seen. I started out using similar techniques myself and adapted my techniques to overcome some of the problems that cropped up as I learned and practiced. I only mist my plants during the time I have to leave my chamber open while doing the grafting. I will also mist them is I see too much wilting but I try not to over do it as I have damping off problems when there is too much moisture. It is kind of a balancing act that can't be explained perfectly. It does take some practice and adapting to the conditions at the time I am grafting. During the summer when I am grafting for fall or late summer plants the conditions are usually more difficult due to heat and fluctuating humidity.

I found also that I had much better results usually by placing the stems of both side by side and making the cut through both of them at the same time. This gives a much better match for the two stems than trying to free hand make a perfect cut on the potted plants and then match them up.

Bill
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