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Old December 1, 2012   #31
Andrey_BY
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Yes, these two are different varieties. Gruntovyi Gribovskiy is Russian CV and quite early, but without any special cold tolerance (0C or lower).

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Originally Posted by maf View Post
Andrey, is the 'Gruntovyi' you mention different from 'Gruntovyi Gribovskiy'? I have seeds for that one and it is supposed to have good cold tolerance; just wondering if it is the same?
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Old December 1, 2012   #32
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Fusion power,
Yes, I've got something for you in small quantities.

Actually it is understandable that most of these varieties can stand such low temperatures only for a short period several times a week and you can't leave them growing at -7C for a month or a whole winter time. They are tomatoes and not apple trees

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Andrey, do you have access to seed of some of the cold tolerant varieties? If so, please PM me if you would be willing to ship me a few to trial.

Thanks,

DarJones
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Old December 1, 2012   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
I have a tomato variety that can survive temps down to 22 degrees fahrenheit.

I have several tomato varieties that are precocious flowering.

TGRC has a tomato with the ft gene that induces fruit set at temps as low as 40 F.

My thought is to cross the three and over a period of about 12 generations try to develop a tomato that can survive 22 degrees, flower as a very young plant, and set fruit at temps as low as 40 degrees.

So what use would it be? Well, we all love to have ripe tomatoes as early in the season as possible. With a variety like this, it would be possible to move the season back as much as 4 weeks so instead of getting ripe fruit in early June, I could have ripe tomatoes in early May.

There are a lot of possible problems though, it might not be possible to combine all the different genes.

DarJones
How can a plant that has water flowing through it survive [below] freezing temperatures.... on a consistent basis? Or are we talking one night of freezing temperature?
I mean, I also had my Brad's Black Heart plant survive 2 nights of 28-32 degree temperatures [with barely the edge of two leaves burned] but I think conditions were just right, like there being certain levels of humidity or no humidity or something like that. It died on the third night of 26 degree freezing temperature.
I could understand if the plant produced a natural anti-freeze but just water flowing through it's "veins"? It does not seem possible in my mind that it would ever "adapt" to consistent freezing temperatures.
Are you just looking for that plant that will withstand a "few" nights of unpredictable freezing weather in otherwise "normal" weather so you don't have to mad-rush to cover your plants?
I am looking at this from a simple perspective....and that is that water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit. The only way I see it not freezing is either insulation or the plant producing a type of antifreeze [that is if the plant even had that type of information in it's genes].
-- But like Fred says, It does sound fascinating and I would be interested in seed too since I live in lower Michigan. A plant like that would easily give me another month.
--
Temperature
The degree of hotness or coldness of a substance is called temperature (Eagleman 1985). It is commonly expressed in degree Celsius or centigrade (C) and degree Fahrenheit (F) . This climatic factor influences all plant growth processes such as photosynthesis, respiration, transpiration, breaking of seed dormancy, seed germination, protein synthesis, and translocation. At high temperatures the translocation of photosynthate is faster so that plants tend to mature earlier.
In general, plants survive within a temperature range of 0 to 50 C (Poincelot 1980). Enzyme activity and the rate of most chemical reactions generally increase with rise in temperature. Up to a certain point, there is doubling of enzymatic reaction with every 10 C temperature increase (Mader 1993). But at excessively high temperatures, denaturation of enzymes and other proteins occur.
Excessively low temperatures can also cause limiting effects on plant growth and development. For example, water absorption is inhibited when the soil temperature is low because water is more viscuous at low temperatures and less mobile, and the protoplasm is less permeable. At temperatures below the freezing point of water, there is change in the form of water from liquid to solid. The expansion of water as it solidifies in living cells causes the rupture of the cell walls (Devlin 1975).
The favorable or optimal day and night temperature range for plant growth and maximum yields varies among crop species.
--
Relative Humidity
The amount of water vapor that the air can hold depends on its temperature; warm air has the capacity to hold more water vapor than cold air. According to Eagleman (1985), there is almost one-half reduction in the amount of water vapor that the air can hold for every 10 C drop in temperature.
Relative humidity (RH) is the amount of water vapor in the air, expressed as the proportion (in percent) of the maximum amount of water vapor it can hold at certain temperature. For example, an air having a relative humidity of 60% at 27 C temperature means that every kilogram of the air contains 60% of the maximum amount of water that it can hold at that temperature (Miller 2001).
The amount of water vapor in the air ranges from 0.01% by volume at the frigid poles to 5% in the humid tropics. Compared to dry air, moist air has a higher relative humidity with relatively large amounts of water vapor per unit volume of air.
The relative humidity affects the opening and closing of the stomata which regulates loss of water from the plant through transpiration as well as photosynthesis.....
--For the full article: http://www.cropsreview.com/climatic-factors.html

Last edited by WillysWoodPile; December 1, 2012 at 03:21 AM.
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Old December 1, 2012   #34
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I am actually looking for something far more useful than just a plant that can survive a few nights of cold temps. I am looking for tomatoes that can extend the season by several weeks in the spring.

As for how a plant with water in the leaves can survive freezing temps, you might ask how collards can take temps down to 0 degrees F. The answer is by pumping sugars into the cells. The sugars act as antifreeze. Of course, everyone in the south knows not to eat collards until you have had a couple of nights of freezing temps. That is the trigger for them to sweeten up.

I have have been doing some significant delving in TGRC. They have some introgression lines from S. Lycopersicoides which just happens to be a nightshade that lives at altitudes up to 3600 meters (2 miles high). It has to be cold tolerant to survive. I have asked if I can request accessions to run a cold tolerance trial. Per R. Chetelat, this has not yet been done with these lines.

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Old December 1, 2012   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
I am actually looking for something far more useful than just a plant that can survive a few nights of cold temps. I am looking for tomatoes that can extend the season by several weeks in the spring.

As for how a plant with water in the leaves can survive freezing temps, you might ask how collards can take temps down to 0 degrees F. The answer is by pumping sugars into the cells. The sugars act as antifreeze. Of course, everyone in the south knows not to eat collards until you have had a couple of nights of freezing temps. That is the trigger for them to sweeten up.

I have have been doing some significant delving in TGRC. They have some introgression lines from S. Lycopersicoides which just happens to be a nightshade that lives at altitudes up to 3600 meters (2 miles high). It has to be cold tolerant to survive. I have asked if I can request accessions to run a cold tolerance trial. Per R. Chetelat, this has not yet been done with these lines.

DarJones
Very interesting Darrel. I look forward to learning.
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Old December 1, 2012   #36
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Quote:
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Of course, everyone in the south knows not to eat collards until you have had a couple of nights of freezing temps. That is the trigger for them to sweeten up.


DarJones
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Old December 1, 2012   #37
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Thanks Maf, for posting the translation, and Andrey - wow! Saraev's tomatoes are amazing, and the information about growing (exposing the seedlings to frosty temps), and about the effect of humidity and wind is important. I'm thinking that the tolerance would follow the 'wind-chill' temperature instead - so if the windchill isn't below the tolerance level, it would be okay.

The characteristic of enduring a brief frosty condition is extremely important for farmers here in Newfoundland, since it is not uncommon to have a frosty night during the growing season. The usual conditions for frost in summer here are very still and clear nights, never stormy or wet. So it's a really good fit for the tolerance described, which can make the difference between having or losing your year's crop.

Early spring frosts are more likely to be windy and wet, so it would be more of a gamble to try to extend the season by planting earlier. Still, if you lose your plants in the spring, there's time to set out more.

Needless to say, adding these varieties to the top of my list. Many thanks for the information.

Last edited by bower; December 1, 2012 at 05:21 PM. Reason: get Saraev name right!
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Old December 1, 2012   #38
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hi Dar -
I've started LA1777 and am hoping to make successful crosses in a couple months. I will let you know how it goes.
I am amazed, I admit, by the Russian data. I would not have thought that possible - they are talking around 10 to 15 degrees Fahrenheit. A 2 molal (isn't that ~25 brix?) sugar solution begins freezing at around 25 degrees F.
Anyway, keep us posted on what you find out. Better start lots!
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Old December 1, 2012   #39
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Goodwin, LA1777 is one that I have on my list to look at, but please note that it is allogamous-SI. Crosses are likely to work only in one direction, i.e. using pollen from LA1777 on domestic tomato blossoms. You are also looking at some complex traits that will take a lot of work to separate out from the genetic chaff.

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Old December 2, 2012   #40
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Yes, I am starting to realize how long it might take. I've done a similar cross and it has taken all sorts of twists and turns. However, it did eventually lead to half a dozen promising lines.
You are probably fortunate to be where you are and get more than one generation a year.
Here I have to burn a lot of wood in that old stove and run the lights several hours a day and the process is still slow. I enjoy it, though it's difficult explaining to the wife why the lights are always running!
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Old December 2, 2012   #41
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Tell her you have the lights on so you can see how pretty she is. She will know you are full of blarney, but she won't complain so much.

DarJones

Last edited by Fusion_power; December 2, 2012 at 11:56 PM.
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Old December 2, 2012   #42
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Dar -
That is a good one - absolutely certain to work and I can't believe I didn't think of it!
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Old December 5, 2012   #43
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I requested a total of 64 accessions from TGRC last night.

LA0490, LA1708, LA1777, LA1781, LA1938, LA1995, LA2006, LA2093, LA2776, LA2777, LA2781, LA2839, LA2915, LA2934, LA2951, LA4026, LA4323, LA4326

LA3857, LA3866, LA3874, LA3883, LA3883, LA4231, LA4232, LA4233, LA4235, LA4236, LA4237, LA4238, LA4239, LA4241, LA4242, LA4243, LA4244, LA4245, LA4246, LA4248, LA4249, LA4251, LA4252, LA4253, LA4254, LA4256, LA4257, LA4259, LA4261, LA4262, LA4264, LA4266, LA4267, LA4268, LA4269, LA4270, LA4271, LA4272, LA4276, LA4278, LA4280, LA4282, LA4284, LA4310, LA4313, LA4314

These were chosen for various levels of disease tolerance, as standard references to compare other lines, and the Lycopersicoides introgression lines so I can run a cold tolerance comparison with some known cold tolerant lines collected from the U.S. and cold tolerant Russian varieties from Andrey.

In addition to the above, I had previously requested and have already received these accessions. These were picked for various traits including disease tolerance, for sampling S. Habrochaites to see how it performs in my climate, and to test for cold tolerance.

LA1342, LA1792, LA1940, LA1941, LA1984, LA2009, LA2144, LA2157, LA2175, LA2409, LA2552, LA2567, LA2574, LA2722, LA2812, LA2855, LA2860, LA2861, LA2864, LA2869, LA2963, LA4104, LA4135, LA4285, LA4453, LA4454

DarJones
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Old December 5, 2012   #44
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WOW! So impressive.

I have hard time to get my head around a tomato that would withstand frosts down to -10C. That would be a miracle, I'd think.

Would have loved to know more scientific details about Saraev's efforts. What is described in the translated article certainly lacks the scientific details

Dar, I am looking forward to see the results of your labor! That's a very interesting project indeed.
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Old December 5, 2012   #45
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And here is a very interesting story about Pavel Saraev methods from another breeder (Mr.Golubev from Russian town Saratov) who has spent some time working together with Pavel (Yakovlevich = his middle Russian name after father Yakov) Saraev (a machine translation as well )
About this man (Golubev) experience
He studied in Russia (at USSR times) at the Michurinsk agricultural college, he worked under the guidance of renowned breeder pome crops - Kondratieva Galina, then studied at agricultural Institute. Vavilov, majoring in plant breeding and seed, which organized the laboratory on biotechnology. He worked with the breeder - mutagenschikom on sorghum - Kostya Galina Ivanovna. Of the seven proposals in graduate school, chose a laboratory cell selection in SRI CX Southeast. Graduate interrupted service in the ranks of our glorious army. In this focus on detail, because it is interesting and you tune your work.

Within a month of my service as a local breeder - Saraev Pavel Yakovlevich, reported that there was a part of the graduate student. After a conversation with me, he realized that his best mate is not found in explaining the results of his many experiments of cold tolerance of cucumbers and tomatoes.

And because it was on a part-time service of the parts for mutual benefit - it helps to provide some fresh vegetables, and he was a little pay extra for retirement and assisted labor, if required.

After six months of service in the unit, he pulled me to the farm. In my duty was to obtain high yields of cucumbers and tomatoes from 9-00 to 21-00, and in the evenings - a theoretical basis of his experiments.

For his 80 years of life, Pavel Yakovlevich found how to work with the samples in order to increase their resistance to frost. The result was stunning results. It's no joke to a tropical vine, which is a cucumber, withstand frost -9 ° C, and the subtropical (tomato), endured without damage for 5 hours - 12 ° C. If I do not stand on boxes of seedlings so cold, hardly anyone believed. Read along and across all its records of experiments, in anticipation of any trick, but everything was perfect, the facts are stubborn thing.

Initially, he found one plant (tomato) surviving after the autumn frost on an area of 3 hectares and began to work with him, noticing the slightest changes in the stability and selecting more pliable samples. As substantial cold tolerance he has accomplished in 10 years, the annual, multiple (5-7) in sublethal freezing conditions at all stages of plant development. Vybrakovyvaya stubborn samples and leaving progressive. Good stability in seed progeny inherited, but only if the parent plants were freezing, even if small (even without culling unstable). Otherwise, the stability of the offspring began to fall to the third generation, only 33% of the plants withstand freezing at these temperatures.

I had to work hard to explain this phenomenon. After all, say, an elderly man in the sunset of his life, that his experiments, it is pure Lysenkoism, like feeding cows chocolate and not worth half a century of his life to spend on it, I certainly could not. We had to find the molecular mechanisms that might allow such an increase in resistance. I had to rummage all local libraries, all bookstores, ask my mother to send me out of the house the necessary books (9 parcels), take a trip to Orenburg Institute of Vegetable Farming and think within 7-8 months. In one of the new books purchased for carcinogenesis, found the line, which said long succession modifications of DNA nucleotides lens. It was this thread, which I unwrapped the whole ball.

In the scientific literature there is a holistic understanding of the big picture of long-term modifications and their patterns of inheritance, but some things can be noted.

Basic properties of DNA modifications that may cause long-term modifications:

1. The more modified nucleotides in which any segment of DNA, the harder it is to read information from the site, it is a modification of nucleotides is one of the mechanisms: regulation of gene activity.

2. When you activate the genes regulated in this way, there is a modification of the cleavage of one of the strands of DNA.

3. Modified picture of DNA is inherited.

4. With the passage of sex (stem) cells through meiosis, a complete picture of modifications restored.

5. Micro-mutations change in the pattern of DNA modifications are inherited for generations, but as the predisposition to certain modifications of DNA preserved in a few generations picture modifications restored. Inheritance for generations change in the pattern of DNA modification called continuous modification and is not considered a true mutation, but increases the chance of its occurrence.

6. Very frequent on gene-modified nucleotides of DNA can lead to loss of data modifications and even replacement of nucleotides, which facilitates the expression (activation) of these genes, or makes them constitutive (always work).

7. Genes unclaimed for several generations can grow into a large number of modifications and become silent. Converse is also true, that silent genes, with frequent access them, and can gradually become active.

Thus, long-term, repeated freezing yielding genotypes, Saraev waked up the silent genes frost even in the tropical liana.

It is possible that some of the forms you selected with increased resistance to frost, have a lasting modification, although I am more inclined to believe that in your case, most likely, is a biochemical adaptation. Namely, under the influence of rootstock, scion biorhythms change towards more relevant climatic conditions. This restores the genetic potential of varieties, disturbed by transferring it to a different climate zone. Grade begins to end the growth processes before full flow processes of preparing for winter (lignification of tissues, their suberinizatsiya, accumulation of reserve fat and growth inhibitors), which can significantly increase its frost and winter hardiness. These processes are more likely with no intervention strategy. What specific processes occur in your selected forms, can be found only after a thorough biochemical and genetic testing, comparing the initial variety and the resulting "clone."

Returning to his home lab, I set out to develop, based on the architecture of the hypothesis I resilience through long modification, his - the mutation method.

Organized groups biology of stress in the first place to test the degree of stress gene expression in stable and unstable Sarajevo tomatoes. It was found that unstable line, stress genes are activated only after hardening, and stable lines, these genes are active initially. This confirmed my hypothesis about the change in the activity of genes in the stress from exposure to low-temperature stress as mutagens for long versions.

Further, it took 5 years of various experiments to find suitable conditions, substance, consistency and concentration effects, to quickly get a true mutations in stress response, increasing resistance to frost.

The result is a technique by which you can get for half a year with the always-on plant stress genes, ready at any time to protect against stress.
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Last edited by Andrey_BY; December 5, 2012 at 01:44 PM.
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