Cherokee pink?

[Raymondo]

A work colleague is growing Cherokee Purple and is loving them. One fruit on one of his plants however was a perfectly round, pink tomato, slightly larger than a tennis ball. I asked for a few seeds and he gave me the fruit. The flavour was very good but just a little more acid than CP, and of course it was very pink. No pics sorry as I'm a lousy photographer. Is this a somatic mutation?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Raymondo

A work colleague is growing Cherokee Purple and is loving them. One fruit on one of his plants however was a perfectly round, pink tomato, slightly larger than a tennis ball. I asked for a few seeds and he gave me the fruit. The flavour was very good but just a little more acid than CP, and of course it was very pink. No pics sorry as I'm a lousy photographer. Is this a somatic mutation?

It sounds like a possible somatic mutation to me Ray.

It's about the only way that one can get one fruit on a plant that's different in color or shape, or whatever, from all the others on the plant that are true to the variety.

But I'm a bit confused b'c usually it's just one trait that has mutatated, not two as in both a color AND shape change.

I've been lucky to see three somatic mutations in all my years of growing tomatoes.

For those who are wondering, most mutations are those that affect the DNA in the seed while somatic mutations, also called "sports" by some, are mutations in the DNA of a plant cell, not the DNA of the seed.

[nctomatoman]

So, Ray, just fruit on 1 cluster/branch is doing that? Then it is a mutation, as Carolyn confirmed. I've had a few crossed Cherokee Purple plants that give small round pink fruit....but it was all the fruit on the plant, of course. Interesting!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

So, Ray, just fruit on 1 cluster/branch is doing that? Then it is a mutation, as Carolyn confirmed. I've had a few crossed Cherokee Purple plants that give small round pink fruit....but it was all the fruit on the plant, of course. Interesting!

Craig, he said ONE fruit, not fruit one cluster or branch, but two of the somatic mutations I've seen have involved all fruits on one branch.

It all depends in what cell and where that cell is as to where the mutation will show up. The variety Yellow Riesentraube was just ONE fruit on a plant where all other fruits were the normal red.

[nctomatoman]

Finding the proverbial needle in a haystack, hey!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

Finding the proverbial needle in a haystack, hey!

Right, and it can't be called Cherokee Pink as I see it b'c there's been both a color and shape change.

With Yellow Riestraube, for instance, the yellow version is identical to the original red with just a color change.

One of the somatic mutations I had was with Green Gage which should normally have yellow'gold fruits at maturity. One branch had just red fruits but they were the same shape.

Another somatic mutation I had was with Dix Doight de Naples and one branch had still the normal red fruits but of a different shape.

I do not distribute seeds for varieties that don't meet the specs of the original varieties, when talking about what I grow, and of both the seed DNA mutations such as a change in epidermis color that can change a pink tomato to a red, and vice versa, and also the somatic mutations .

I see that Glenn at Sandhill is offering a pink Cuostralee that he found. I've had the same for many many years but never distributed seeds.

What others do about naming, renaming varieties that arose from either seed DNA or somatic mutations they can do. I'm just saying what I will and won't do.

[travis]

How many people saw the pink tomato while it was still attached to the vine?

[Raymondo]

I should have waited a day to post. I saw my work colleague this morning. On further questioning, it turns out that it is the entire plant, not just one fruit. It's just a stray seed of something else. Out of curiosity I'll keep seeds and grow one next season but, for the time being at least, there is no Cherokee Pink. I got all excited too. Oh well.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Raymondo

I should have waited a day to post. I saw my work colleague this morning. On further questioning, it turns out that it is the entire plant, not just one fruit. It's just a stray seed of something else. Out of curiosity I'll keep seeds and grow one next season but, for the time being at least, there is no Cherokee Pink. I got all excited too. Oh well.

Aw shucks Ray for I thought you might have had another interesting somatic mutation.

There's always another year, other possibilities.

[Tomstrees]

I've had that happen: 1 odd fruit color on a branch (forget which variety) but after saving seeds and thinking something new had happened: the second generation produced normal colored fruit - was it environmental ? was it "genes" - no idea

While I do believe somatic mutations are possible, I do not think they happen this much - more likely these blossoms are getting too close to other varieties aka a simple cross - I mean really: we as "tomatophiles" are "packing them in these days" - who knows whats going on out there

Now I know that's against the "grain" of what some people think, but its just my opinion - but yeah I guess it "can be"

~ Tom

[amideutch]

I was thinking the same as Tom. Why couldn't it be a cross if it is one fruit that's different than the rest. I had this happen this past growing season at my surrogate garden at work. My plants were packed and I had a wild card show up on my JD's Special C-Tex that was totally different than the rest of the C-Tex fruit. The plant was sandwiched between Guido and Belmonte. Yes, I saved seed. Ami

[carolyn137]

Tom, Ami, any crossing that might occur can only show up with saved seeds from fruits, meaning, they don't appear in the same season that the cross occurs.

Tom, somatic mutations are just like seed DNA mutations in that both should be permanent and heritable.

So seeds saved from a single wrong fruit on a plant, whether it be a color or shape change, should come true with saved seeds from that one fruit unless there was more than one mutation that occurred at the same time, which would be exceedlingly rare.

One example of a complex mutation is the variety Lutescent where the foliage is pale and sickly looking, the blossoms are ivory colored, and the fruits ripen in sequence to 4-5 different colors. Some folks think that it was due to what's called a pleitropic mutation which means a mutation in a gene that controls other genes.

Maybe that's what happened when Cherokee Chocolate went to Cherokee Green and when the variety Dr. Carolyn went to Green Doctors. No way to know without extensive DNA work and that's not going to happen.

And yes, somatic mutations are rare which is why I was so pleased to see three of them, but that's with thousands upon thousands of plants grown over the years..

Weather can alter the shape of fruits sometimes and I think we've all seen pictures that folks have shown that show that some morph into blunt hearts.

[Tomstrees]

I guess genetically CP is not stable hence why all the mutations - just amazing to me !

~ Tom

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Tomstrees

I guess genetically CP is not stable hence why all the mutations - just amazing to me !

~ Tom

Tom, the plant that had ALL pink fruit could be a mutation or a cross.

If it's a mutation, which is problematic to me, saved seeds from those pink fruits would give the same pink fruits the next time around, barring any X pollination.

But if it were a cross, then saved F2 seeds should give several different kinds of plants/fruits.

And until someone saves seeds and plants out there is no answer to those two possibilities.

The change from CP to CC was a simple epidermis mutation which has occured with many varieties that go from red to pink or vice versa.

The change from CC to Cherokee Green is harder to understand but from a genetic point of view it has been discussed previously and Keith has said it could happen.

So I'm not too sure I'd say that CP is prone to instability b'c it's only this last change from CC to CG that's pertinent as I see it.

A similar situation occurred with the variety Dr. Carolyn which changed to what is being called Green Doctors. I asked Keith about that one as well and he said it could happen. But Dr. Carolyn had shown some previous instability early on with some plants with red fruits and others with pink fruits.

[Tomstrees]

yeah - I guess theres no telling whats going on until next season: grow em out Ray ! You git us all riled up !!! lol ~

Tom