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Old January 1, 2017   #16
gorbelly
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I guess that I should also include Serenade. Any proponents for it here?

-GG
I used it this year alternating with organic copper soap (Bonide) and had pretty good results. My initial impression is that Serenade did very well against bacterial speck, which is the predominant tomato problem in my garden, but this year was much better.

I tried it on the powdery mildew on my squash, and it seemed to do as well as the copper, which is to say not a terrific job.

EB came for my tomatoes as always, but it came late, and it was extremely well controlled on everything except Coyote, which I think is just an especially susceptible plant, and which was kind of hard to spray because it's so shrubby.

It's hard to make conclusions because we had unusual weather this year, from a super rainy and cool May to an unusually brutally hot stretch from the middle of June through most of July. But I plan to use the same combination of copper alternating with Serenade this year again.
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Old January 1, 2017   #17
PS1452
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I alternate between chlorothalonil, liquid copper, and Serenade. Like gorbelly noted, it seemed that the Serenade was the most effective this year against the bacterial speck/spot, especially on the peppers.

I've always favored the copper formulations that were 10% copper soap, especially Soap-Shield. I see that the Southern Ag brand that was mentioned is "copper ammonium complex". Does anyone have any experience using both kinds, and which seemed to be better?
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Old January 1, 2017   #18
gorbelly
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I avoid neem because I don't want to hurt beneficials. This year, I relied on beneficials heavily by interplanting specifically to attract and nurture them. It was really successful. If not for the tomato pinworm epidemic this year, I wouldn't have had to spray anything for pests at all.

Even though many people say that neem doesn't harm beneficials, I haven't heard a plausible explanation of a mechanism by which it can be harmless to beneficials but eradicate pests, so I don't use neem as a fungicide.
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Old January 1, 2017   #19
agee12
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This was my first serious gardening year so I don't have a lengthy track record but I used a solution comprised of baking soda, dish detergent and oil. I alternated between using cooking oil and Neem oil. I also used diatomaceous earth for pest control and did wonder if the DE and/or the baking soda concoction interfered with pollinators, it took a long time for my cucumber plant to actually start going from flowers to fruit - I think that the DE was more of a culprit than the baking soda concoction if only because I usually did the baking soda spray in the evenings.

One good thing I did (IMO), and this probably applies to pest control more than fungus control, was that I did daily inspections of my plants looking for signs of any kind of invader or disease, and probably did it more than once, I was downright OCD about it.
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Old January 1, 2017   #20
gorbelly
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also used diatomaceous earth for pest control and did wonder if the DE and/or the baking soda concoction interfered with pollinators
DE can harm bees if they come into contact with enough of it, as the mechanism by which it works is mechanical, i.e., it abrades insects' exoskeletons and compromises their shells, which makes them dehydrate and die. Although I don't use it on foliage, a lot of people do and still have bees. Because of the parts of the plant the bees come in contact with, I imagine it's not a huge problem for them if application of DE is careful to avoid getting the powder on the flowers. I personally worry more about beneficial predator bugs who would be hanging out on foliage just like their prey.

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it took a long time for my cucumber plant to actually start going from flowers to fruit
Not sure whether you know this, as you say you are a relatively new gardener, but most cucurbits produce male flowers for a while before they start producing the female flowers that will turn into fruit. So a period of seeing flowers and no fruit is normal with cucumbers, squash, etc.

This year I learned of an exception. I grew Sanditas (mouse melons, Mexican sour gherkings, Melothria scabra) and was confused because they start producing female flowers first. So you still have to wait, only this time, you wait for the males. I wonder what interesting environmental conditions led to evolving that particular behavior? You'd think female flowers would be more energy-intensive to produce, so you wouldn't want to waste them like that. Very odd.
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Old January 1, 2017   #21
b54red
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I use Daconil especially as a preventative for Early Blight and a few others; but I also use copper spray the Southern Ag brand for speck, spot, and gray mold prevention. If those don't work I resort to the bleach spray for diseases especially gray mold that have taken hold despite the preventive fungicide applications and then follow up with one of them. I never mix any of them together.

I have a good friend who only uses the bleach spray and it is quite effective if applied weekly or after every rain. If used this way make sure to spray in the evenings and hit all surfaces with a fine mist. I use it every week to ten days on squash and cucumbers as a great preventive for mildews. I haven't had any on my squash since I started doing this nearly a decade ago and before that mildew got my squash even before the squash vine borers could.

As for pests I use different things for different pests.
Small sucking insects like flea beetles: Permethrin and soapy water
Cucumber and potato beetles: Permethrin or Sevin
Squash vine borer: Sevin powder applied to the stem only and reapplied after rain
Cabbage worms and other chewing caterpillars: BT and Sevin if the BT doesn't work
Pin worms on tomatoes, squash and cukes: Sevin liquid
Stink bugs, Leaf footed bugs, spider mites, and really bad infestations of aphids: DE food grade, Permethrin, and very soapy water. Warning this will kill almost any insects so wait till absolutely necessary before using it and only apply in the late evenings. Most of the beneficials leave my garden once the temps get in the 90s and I try not to use this mix when they are active unless I am fighting spider mites but they are usually a late summer pest. My honey bee population has been steadily going up the past few years so my judicious use of this mix has not seemed to have had a negative affect on them so far.

Bill
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Old January 1, 2017   #22
agee12
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DE can harm bees if they come into contact with enough of it, as the mechanism by which it works is mechanical, i.e., it abrades insects' exoskeletons and compromises their shells, which makes them dehydrate and die. Although I don't use it on foliage, a lot of people do and still have bees. Because of the parts of the plant the bees come in contact with, I imagine it's not a huge problem for them if application of DE is careful to avoid getting the powder on the flowers. I personally worry more about beneficial predator bugs who would be hanging out on foliage just like their prey.



Not sure whether you know this, as you say you are a relatively new gardener, but most cucurbits produce male flowers for a while before they start producing the female flowers that will turn into fruit. So a period of seeing flowers and no fruit is normal with cucumbers, squash, etc.

This year I learned of an exception. I grew Sanditas (mouse melons, Mexican sour gherkings, Melothria scabra) and was confused because they start producing female flowers first. So you still have to wait, only this time, you wait for the males. I wonder what interesting environmental conditions led to evolving that particular behavior? You'd think female flowers would be more energy-intensive to produce, so you wouldn't want to waste them like that. Very odd.
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah I'm aware that most cucurbits initially produce more male flowers than female flowers, and my gender identification skills were kinda spotty, I would stand there looking at the flowers trying to figure out if they were females, and even tried my hand at hand pollination and probably did a lot of same sex mating, not that there's anything wrong with that. But there definitely came a point where I could see female flowers/buds that ended up being non-starters. I actually read somewhere that a pollinator has to have several encounters for the actual deed to be done, and while I definitely got bees and butterflies, I did not have that many.
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Old January 1, 2017   #23
gorbelly
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Thanks for the feedback. Yeah I'm aware that most cucurbits initially produce more male flowers than female flowers, and my gender identification skills were kinda spotty, I would stand there looking at the flowers trying to figure out if they were females, and even tried my hand at hand pollination and probably did a lot of same sex mating, not that there's anything wrong with that. But there definitely came a point where I could see female flowers/buds that ended up being non-starters. I actually read somewhere that a pollinator has to have several encounters for the actual deed to be done, and while I definitely got bees and butterflies, I did not have that many.
It can take a while for a new garden to get on the radar of the local pollinators. Also, if you disturbed good nesting sites while laying out your garden beds, you might have disrupted native bees, which are usually ground-dwelling and do far more pollination of vegetable gardens than honeybees.

Or it could be that your cucumbers were wanting more water or nutrients. I find that cucurbits are picky about that. Their leaves and vines may look fine and healthy, but they can be stingy with fruiting unless they feel like there's an abundance of water and fert.

So the small number of pollinators may or may not have to do with your DE use.
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Old January 2, 2017   #24
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For those of you that use liquid copper, is it actually copper sulfate crystals dissolved in water, maybe with some added surfactants, etc.? (I've never seen the liquid copper products.)

-GG
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Old January 2, 2017   #25
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For those of you that use liquid copper, is it actually copper sulfate crystals dissolved in water, maybe with some added surfactants, etc.? (I've never seen the liquid copper products.)

-GG
I've tried the wettable copper and found it be too difficult to use (mix, strain through cheesecloth, then it still clogged). I've been using Soap Shield http://www.gardensalive.com/product/...de-3/lawn-care, which seemed to stay mixed in the tank better than similar brands. I think this year I'm going to try the Southern Ag brand that has been mentioned by others.
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Old January 2, 2017   #26
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For those of you that use liquid copper, is it actually copper sulfate crystals dissolved in water, maybe with some added surfactants, etc.? (I've never seen the liquid copper products.)

-GG
I have had a copper fungicide by " LIQUID COP" brand name. When I moved did not bring it with me. So I don't know what active ingredients were in it.
I have to get fresh supply of Daconil and copper fungicide. I've already got Neem oil base concentrate.
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Old January 2, 2017   #27
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For those of you that use liquid copper, is it actually copper sulfate crystals dissolved in water, maybe with some added surfactants, etc.? (I've never seen the liquid copper products.)

-GG
Southern Ag us what they sell at Home Depot and it is an already mixed liquid concentrate.
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Old January 3, 2017   #28
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I'm using the phosphorous fungicide like Agri-fos but I use the generic from TreeStuff. I really think it did the trick and did not see much foliar damage from what I would think was a fungus. This year I will try to rotate with copper since you are supposed to anyway. The phosphorous lists P. infestans late blight, along with "Phytophora spp" so some other "mystery" ones too. And it has no harvest interval either! I emailed the manufacturer and they said because it's systemic you only have to spray the tops. It seems almost like an organic treatment. Ordering the gallon from TreeStuff is far cheaper than the little bottles of Agri-fos.
For me, it's the spider mites that are the worst until the heat arrives in July and the plants stop setting and need to be pulled and watermelons planted.
https://www.treestuff.com/store/cata...tem=844#detail
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Old January 3, 2017   #29
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Had not heard of that one, and there are probably several others that would be new to me, also. I found this info useful:
http://www.greencure.net/what_is_greencure.asp

It was a bit surprising to me that it is listed as only 25-35% more effective than baking soda. Most of the soda recipes that I've seen use vegetable oil and dish detergent as the "spreader sticker." Seems like a less viscous oil might yield better results, but that is just a guess. Anyone tried any other blends for the "spreader sticker?"

-GG
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Old January 3, 2017   #30
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Would any of you/have any of you used Actinovate combined with the above mentioned products? Daconil or Copper? Or is that overkill?

Thanks,

Greg
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