super truss as leader?

[JRinPA]

These Cherokee Purple are florida weaved, but with my normal cage separation of 33". I tried to keep them to two leaders. On two of the six plants, the strangest thing has happened. One of the fruit trusses has seemingly become a growing tip. (see pics) The truss is branching and growing more and more flower branches.


What am I looking at here?

[bower]

JR, I have an F4 tomato that's doing the same thing. For some reason this line produced enormous clusters from F2 on. Apparently there is a gene that suppresses 'enormous cluster' and in the breeding process it got de-activated. We thought it might be environmental but a friend grew out the pink line last year and clusters continued to be enormous. Now this year I'm growing out the black and the enormous cluster has put out a few leaves and is continuing to grow and make more buds, leaves, buds etc etc. It doesn't follow the normal pattern of a leader though, which has 3 leaves between clusters. Just a leaf here and there, then pushing out more buds...

It's basically a plant where you only need one cluster of fruit to load 'er down.

Maybe you have a mutant CP?

[ContainerTed]

Sooner or later, popular varieties have so many plants growing around the world that a cross happens. This sounds like a cross with a multiflora. I find it extremely interesting in that a Cherokee Purple with fruit the same size and same taste and plants loading up more than usual has my saliva glands in overdrive.

Perhaps I could trade someone out of a few seeds to try next season. Any takers? I have plenty to trade or can do SASE's or whatever.

[Salsacharley]

Perhaps you have created a determinate Cherokee Purple.

[bower]

The one I have, they are small fruit not CP's. JR, don't forget to show us pics of the super truss when it is getting to full sized CP's.

As I understand it, the gene that suppressed large rambling trusses was considered desirable for breeding because the plant can only support so many fruit....
So feed that puppy, JR !!!!

[JRinPA]

I talked to a couple at the comm garden today and they say they have seen it happen before, but don't know the cause.

I'll have to check my haphazard notes and see if this was from my saved seed from last year or two, or if it is directly from a tomatoville trade. Admittedly, this is the first year the plants are under control enough to make it obvious. I grew CP last year, eight plants florida weaved, about 18" spacing, but did not take suckers off (til aka "sappers" to you New Jersey types). Basically I got three nice and early sets of tomatoes from each plant, then a few here and there before they were burnt out from blight. Last year was wet. Previous to that I grew it in cages and let them go. Would have been cages this year too, except look at that spacing! With cages down the middle I couldn't even fit through without walking in sideways! After planting like that I had no choice but to weave the middle row which happened to be CP.

Bower, that makes sense. I'm looking at those trusses and wondering how big the tomatoes could really get if that many are going. Also I'll need to get creative with truss support. What do you suggest for fertilizer? They are in raised rows of compost, maybe some carp compost as well, with 10-10-10 and epsom salt before planting. Also, pole beans there the last two seasons. I generally don't water or fertilize during the season.

There were so many flowers, I broke my tuning fork last week... When I saw those trusses today and really looked them over, I ordered another one!

[zipcode]

I thought this was normal? I get it on my plants all the time. It's not always a strong leader, but sometimes it is. Berkley Tie Dye Pink has a tendency to do this more than normal, with many new leaders in one truss. I prune to one stem so that may be related. (I of course cut all of them off).

[bower]

JR, it sounds pretty rich. Everyone here will give you different fert advice, and I'm no expert, just wingin it with whatever organic fert I can get. I usually see senescence and/or blight of lower leaves around the time the first fruit ripen, and that is my cue to start feeding em up.

I have noticed that beef types that have large trusses usually produce a variety of sizes for me - I've never managed to get a dozen full size fruit on one truss but maybe that's the var I'm thinking of (OJPL). Larger truss especially 'super truss' is associated with variable fruit size in my mind but again, could be the vars and not a general rule, or could simply be my grow environment and methods. The same varieties planted in ground at my friend's farm greenhouse often have twice the fruit size as mine.

@zipcode, I was wondering if "leaf on the truss" was a response to pruning, because I do have that on multiple plants this year, which seemed to want a leaf handy for those little fruits. The difference in the 'super truss' though is that instead of just terminating in a leaf, the truss continues to branch and produce new buds, flowers and fruits.

[NarnianGarden]

It has happened several times that my indet black tomatoes get trusses which turn into branches.. and continue to form leaves and new buds, if I don't see them in time and stop the process. They're fascinating, but difficult to contain properly.
I did read somewhere that it's due to excess (=good) fertilizing. Don't know.

[bower]

Speaking of 'difficult to contain', I was thinking of asking folks who grow multiflora and 'de colgar' varieties what they do to support the truss. Some of my truss branches I have tied up like vertical leaders, but that is awkward due to the branching tips, and also, some fruit end up sideways or up side down...

[zipcode]

Originally Posted by bower

@zipcode, I was wondering if "leaf on the truss" was a response to pruning, because I do have that on multiple plants this year, which seemed to want a leaf handy for those little fruits. The difference in the 'super truss' though is that instead of just terminating in a leaf, the truss continues to branch and produce new buds, flowers and fruits.

That is a trait that is definitely associated to some gene to some extent. The multifloras I grew (like Riesentraube) have many leaves in that huge flower truss. Also, again PBTD, I wonder what the parents were, has some very odd characteristics. Besides having very big trusses with leaves and sometimes leaders, it also often skips after the first truss to 5 leaves instead of the normal 3 before the next truss (probably to better feed the megatruss).

[venturabananas]

I've had this happen many times, with many varieties. I thought I had read somewhere on T-ville that it is related to excess nitrogen fertilizer.

[nbardo]

From a few scientific papers i have read, there are a few genes known to have an impact on truss (inflorescence) architecture. This might not be the exact mechanism, but what i remember is that as the truss develops the flower organs create proteins that block the expression of the genes that tell the truss to keep growing more flowers. So as flowers develop on the truss, the growth of the truss eventually stops. In multiflora mutations the buildup of these proteins is slower (because the flowers take longer to mature?) so the truss gets to keep growing bigger and bigger before the genetic program kicks in and tells it to stop. Something like that.


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[nbardo]

Originally Posted by zipcode

That is a trait that is definitely associated to some gene to some extent. The multifloras I grew (like Riesentraube) have many leaves in that huge flower truss. Also, again PBTD, I wonder what the parents were, has some very odd characteristics. Besides having very big trusses with leaves and sometimes leaders, it also often skips after the first truss to 5 leaves instead of the normal 3 before the next truss (probably to better feed the megatruss).

PBTD is either a mutation or cross or alternate selection of Berkley Tie-Die, which was discovered by Brad Gates in a field of Beauty King. Beauty King is a cross of Big Rainbow and Green Zebra. So it at least has those two in its genetic background


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[JRinPA]

So a week or so later and I'm seeing some things that tell me it is not a cross, and is probably excess nutrition and maybe dry weather.

On the CP row I had started pulling suckers right away, and got them down to two stems. The trusses were large and eventually on a couple of them a truss took over and started replicating more trusses and leaves, what I called a super truss. Others are growing stems out the end of the trusses and then reverting to more or less normal leaf leaf truss etc.

Next to them are OR117, and they started out without suckering. They are in cages, and I don't bother suckering cages. At some point, it occurred to me I must sucker them this year; otherwise when they get the blight, it will quickly jump to the CP, and the CP with just a couple stems will be overwhelmed. The OR117 had big stems to remove, which I did, down to three stems per cage. I know I retarded the plants some - that energy was already spent forming big stems, which I now cut off. This also concentrated future energy into the fewer stems.

Now, that the OR17 has been curtailed, I have noticed them throwing big trusses of their own. Many are trying to grow stems and leafs out of the end of trusses, and generally acting with the same weirdness as the CP, albeit delayed. In comparison to CP, the OR117 are a later tomato, but I think it is likely due to the later suckering decision. Before, stems growth was balancing nutrients; now the nutrients are causing issues.

The other caged tomato is my "stupice" look alike, but RL, that I got in trade a couple years back. That I also suckered at the same time as OR117, for same reason. It had nice big thick stems that I was loathe to remove, but eventually I "closed my eyes and thought of England". Those plants are not growing crazy trusses, but filling nice long symmetrical trusses similar to a cherry like sungold/sunsugar. There are not nearly as many tomatoes as their otherwise would be at this point, but I we'll see. Unless they start putting out soon, I doubt I would ever sucker them again.

I have to conclude, for my personal observation, that the heavy compost and fertilzer is not needed for suckered plants with large spacing like this, and is causing the strange growth. It was dry in May/June and perhaps that has left a lot of nutrients concentrated as well, rather than washing out. Had I let the plants do their thing as I normally do, the plants would be probably be acting normally, which is put on nice first few sets, then put on a huge crop of smaller tomatoes while they are ripening, then a third time, before starting to peter out in early Sept. By that time the EB/septoria would be heavy, sun is less, nights are colder.


edit: forgot pics, stem growing off OR117 truss, few days back before camera was left out in heavy rain.