Post for Photos of Grafted Plants

[lycoperson]

Naysen, excess leaves means excess transpiration, making it more difficult for the plant to supply enough water and nutrients to the fruit. Excess fruit also makes hard for the plant to supply enough water and nutrients to all the fruit. Your vigorous rootstock could make BER worse if it steers the plant either too vegetative or too generative. As you say, as you get to know a variety, you can then learn how to optimize yield of #1 grade fruit for that variety.

In a home garden situation, you can just cut out/off the black bits on ripe fruits with BER and you still have something worth eating. They aren't marketable really. I eat the BERs and unsold fruit, all my customers get all the #1s.

The Mighty 'Mato brand of grafted tomatoes are grown on the rootstock 'supernatural,' available from Territorial Seeds. The grower tried Maxifort but found it steered the plants much too vegetative in a home gardening situation. Too many leaves, not enough fruit. I don't recall what rootstocks you use, and your message above doesn't indicate it.

Maxifort was developed for long cropping (42+ weeks harvest) of indoor chemical hydroponic production. Multifort and Beaufort were developed for short cropping indoor (2 crops a year) chemical hydroponic production. The data shows about 20% increased marketable fruit yield by weight. Indoor hydroponic is already so productive, the rootstock can only add so much.

In outdoor unprotected tomato production, the rootstocks might contribute a lot more yield, since outdoor production is less productive on a per-unit area. Your vines that are now 8 feet will easily put on another 2 - 4 feet per month, so your cages are only going to get you so far. Eventually you might have vines 20 feet long or more. So horizontal trellising becomes necessary.

Paul

[b54red]

I haven't used Maxifort for a rootstock but I would think that the solution to the highly vegetative plant would be to keep it well pruned even if you only keep one stem. I always have that problem with Gary O' Sena every year. It wants to send out suckers at every leaf node and wants to fork every 6 to 10 inches. Left to its own devices it will make a gigantic plant with only a few fruit developing. I now have grafted plants in the garden with 7 different rootstock. Big Beef, Ball's Beefsteak, Tasti-Lee, Floralina, Amelia, Multifort, and a fluke tomato that showed good fusarium resistance and vigor.

Bill

[z_willus_d]

Hi David, thanks for posting your pics and providing the details on the experiments you're running. All your plants look great, if only a touch blossom bare. I like that you're comparing the Red BW as both single-stem and untended both grafted and un-grafted. I want to know the result column of that matrix as your season progresses. Fruit quality/plant health/longevity/etc.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Hi Paul, there's a lot of good information in your post. I might try the "SuperNatural" Root Stock next year to see how it compares to the Maxifort that I'm mainly using now. I have a few vines on Beaufort as well.

I tend to cull the BER fruit when I see them, rather leaving the plant to focus on the #1's as you say. My family aren't too keen on eating the rotted fruit, and for my taste the unrotted portions are still less tasty than the #1's. Also, I like to ripen indoor to help with my bird situation, and BER'd fruit just turns bad faster.

Thanks!
-naysen

[lycoperson]

Naysen, Pulling the BERs is a form of cluster pruning, so you're already on your way!

b54red, yes you can steer them away from being too generative with good pruning practices. The Mighty 'Mato growers strongly recommended 2 central leaders and no further branching allowed.

[aclum]

Hi Naysen,

Thanks for starting this thread. I'll try to get some good photos of my graft comparisons posted soon. Your tomatoes are looking great, I think! Plus I'm impressed by your MJBs with over100 fruit set and 8' tall plants!! I had imagined a vast tomato wasteland from all your struggles with foliage, etc. problems (I have a very vivid imagination - LOL)! I guess all your diligent spraying paid off!

I find the topic of appropriate rootstocks quite interesting. (Actually I think the original title of LOF's grafting thread - the BIG thread - was what was the best rootstock for grafting <g>). I posted in the BIG thread about the info in the online Johnnys grafting instruction text about choosing the right rootstock - on the generatative/vegetative scale - for your particular scion. I found some interesting stuff searching the web at the time on "vegetative vs generative tomatoes" and posted a couple of links. One link I couldn't find again after originally locating it, had a photo of buds demonstrating how the buds of the tomatoes could indicate which type of scion you had. The "neck" of one type had almost a right angle right before the blossom and the other type had more of a gentle arc. Or it could have been that the "neck" of the right angled type was more parallel to the main stem. Unfortunately I can't remember which blossom type was which growth pattern type! If anyone knows or can post a useful link, I'd be very grateful!! (Lyco probably knows <g>).

Also, if you look at the descriptions for the Johnny seed rootstocks, they describe the different growth characteristics - veg vs gen. Actually, since I'm using Grandeur, Katana, Momotaro, and Ping Tung Eggplant as rootstock, I'm tempted to run outside and compare the blossoms of my controls to some of the grafted plants .... hadn't thought about this aspect of things for a while. Maybe I can figure out if I chose the right rootstock for each scion based on that criteria. I have Lucky Cross, KBX, and Hillbilly each with a control and a graft on both Katana and Grandeur. Might check things out later and report back.

Thanks everyone for posting your photos along with comments. Very interesting!

Anne

[z_willus_d]

Hi Anne,

I may have slightly exaggerated a foot or so with my 8' comment, but I will say many of the vines are reaching close to 8', and I expect many will be there within a few weeks.

With respect to the tomato wasteland, I'll say that in a way all my spraying (every other day for a while now) has probably contributed to a lot of my problems and damage as much as it has helped deter them. I have managed to keep aphids off the map. Thrips are a constant threat, but I seem to have their numbers in check. I've found Spinosad seems to work best on them, but if I don't spray it for a week or more, the thrips are back. But, I have to be careful with Spinosad, as thrips are able to quickly adapt to it "generationaly." So I spray with Pyrethrem, which is somewhat effective on the thrips. I was also cycling in Neem, mineral oil, and a few other organics. Well, I think the oils are really starting to damage the leaves on my plants. And one particular spraying of pyrethren oil mixed with in Safer insecticidal soap did a huge deal of damage. Killing off a large number of my pepper leaves (they're still dropping from it) and also blackening many of my tomato leaves, especially those that with cups in the leaves where the liquid pooled. I think I'm going to back off the frequency of spraying as well as the oils/soaps, which seem to do too much damage, even being sprayed at dusk. I have just received a new (expensive) organic, Mycotrol-O, which is a fungus that supposed to attack thrips. I believe it will be less damaging on my foliage.

As for the tomato russet mites Steve identified, I believe they are under control, though I see here and there evidence of their mischief. I just haven't been able to locate an outbreak yet. Until I do, I will not change my spraying regimen on account of the TMRs.

So in summary, I have caused a lot of foliar damage with all my spraying, and I believe I have damaged flower blooms as well. That's not to mention the fact that I believe the flowers ability to set fruit is greatly reduced when I'm spraying liquids up into them.

I did see your comments about Johnny's instructions with the generative vs. vegetative scion-rootstock pairing. It's been sticking in the back of my mind, though I'm not yet sure what to do about the data (or lack thereof).

Looking forward to your pic contributions.

Thanks (and sorry for rambling on about the spraying concerns in my garden)-
-naysen

[lycoperson]

Hmm, I don't know anything about the angle of the pedicel being indicative of a variety's tendency toward being generative or vegetative. I'd love to read about that if you come across it again, Anne.

I think if we're going to get this precise, we're going to need to define our terms. The pedicel is the stem of the flower that joins the truss. The stem supporting all the flowers is called a peduncle. If you want to learn all the terms for tomato anatomy, UC Davis has a great site for that: http://www-plb.ucdavis.edu/labs/rost...o/tomhome.html

One indication that a plant is overly vegetative is if it's making 'stick clusters.' This is when the peduncle leaves the stem at a sharp, vertical angle. These clusters require support, because as the fruit sizes up, the weight of the fruit will put a kink in the peduncle. I don't worry too much if the first cluster is that way, because the plant is (obviously) just transitioning from its vegetative phase to generative when it puts out the first flowers. But if the plant is doing this at the third cluster, it's time to steer the plant toward more fruit production.

[I promise to get back on topic and post some grafted tomato pics soon!]

[z_willus_d]

Paul, would this pic of my grafted Madame Jardel's Black be an example of an overly vegetative (which it is) plant putting out the sharp right-angle peduncle? Certainly the pedicel seem to be right-angled. I have several fruit truss that have already bent-over under the weight of their fruit. Assuming the fruit don't snap off the truss, can you say what the bounds of "badness" are in having a bent-over truss for the fruit that it bears?

Thanks for the insights.
-naysen

[lycoperson]

The sharp right angle in your pic is at the pedicel, and not the peduncle.

The insertion of the peduncle to the main stem is barely visible in the frame, so if you can take a shot just a little lower and further to the left, that would be a big help in answering your question. But judging from what I can see, it doesn't carry that classic stick cluster look. It looks like the plant will be able to handle the weight of the fully loaded truss without kinking.

Anne was referring to maybe reading something about the pedicels and the angle there, something I know nothing about, and it might be a misread on her part. If we can track down the reference, we can evaluate it together.

I was referring to the angle made by the peduncle/truss as it inserts to the main stem. An arch is the strongest shape for that. If the angle becomes too acute, then the heavy fruit load forms a kink in the peduncle. This is bad because the kink makes it harder for the plant to push assimilate into the fruit, leading to either reduced fruit size, BER, or both.

I will see if I can take a picture illustrating this. In my greenhouse, I get excited and take pictures of the successes. When the folks from NMSU visit, they get equally excited at the failures and love taking pictures of that for their future talks!

[aclum]

Hi Lyco,

I think I did misread some things or use the incorrect terminology (plus I'm getting pretty forgetful these days!). At any rate, I think I was actually referring (at least in part) to the angle between the stem and peduncle that you mentioned in your post.

I haven't been able to relocate the photo I'd seen earlier, but I "rediscovered" this useful article with a table showing the differences between the vegetative vs generative forms, including the stem truss angles:

http://ag.arizona.edu/ceac/sites/ag....20tomatoes.pdf

Looking forward to seeing the photos of your greenhouse plants showing the truss (peduncle) to stem angle that you mentioned. In the meantime, I'll keep searching for the photo I referenced earlier.

Anne

[b54red]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi Anne,

I may have slightly exaggerated a foot or so with my 8' comment, but I will say many of the vines are reaching close to 8', and I expect many will be there within a few weeks.

With respect to the tomato wasteland, I'll say that in a way all my spraying (every other day for a while now) has probably contributed to a lot of my problems and damage as much as it has helped deter them. I have managed to keep aphids off the map. Thrips are a constant threat, but I seem to have their numbers in check. I've found Spinosad seems to work best on them, but if I don't spray it for a week or more, the thrips are back. But, I have to be careful with Spinosad, as thrips are able to quickly adapt to it "generationaly." So I spray with Pyrethrem, which is somewhat effective on the thrips. I was also cycling in Neem, mineral oil, and a few other organics. Well, I think the oils are really starting to damage the leaves on my plants. And one particular spraying of pyrethren oil mixed with in Safer insecticidal soap did a huge deal of damage. Killing off a large number of my pepper leaves (they're still dropping from it) and also blackening many of my tomato leaves, especially those that with cups in the leaves where the liquid pooled. I think I'm going to back off the frequency of spraying as well as the oils/soaps, which seem to do too much damage, even being sprayed at dusk. I have just received a new (expensive) organic, Mycotrol-O, which is a fungus that supposed to attack thrips. I believe it will be less damaging on my foliage.

As for the tomato russet mites Steve identified, I believe they are under control, though I see here and there evidence of their mischief. I just haven't been able to locate an outbreak yet. Until I do, I will not change my spraying regimen on account of the TMRs.

So in summary, I have caused a lot of foliar damage with all my spraying, and I believe I have damaged flower blooms as well. That's not to mention the fact that I believe the flowers ability to set fruit is greatly reduced when I'm spraying liquids up into them.

I did see your comments about Johnny's instructions with the generative vs. vegetative scion-rootstock pairing. It's been sticking in the back of my mind, though I'm not yet sure what to do about the data (or lack thereof).

Looking forward to your pic contributions.

Thanks (and sorry for rambling on about the spraying concerns in my garden)-
-naysen

I am always afraid to spray anything oily on my plants if the temperatures are above 90. I have damaged a lot of leaves with just simple Neem oil. Every time one of the sprays puddles it will really mess with the foliage. Even soapy water sprays can cause damage if they puddle or it is done in the heat of the day with good sunshine. Although it seems crazy the best time to spray and minimize leaf burn is to do it on a windy day either very early or very late. The wind will quickly dry the spray which reduces the chance of puddling and leaf burn. The only problem is you frequently get more spray on yourself than on the plants.

One of the biggest problems with going totally organic if you live where there is heavy disease or pest pressure is that some of the solutions require frequent spraying to be at all effective. I want my tomato leaves to stay as dry as possible since we have such high humidity and such an abundance of fungal diseases and molds to deal with. When the humidity is very high it is very difficult for the leaves to dry after they are sprayed unless it is a bit windy. The only regular spraying I do is once a week with Daconil.

When I had a particularly bad case of spider mites a few years back I was spraying every three days to keep them under control with mostly organic sprays and that created another problem of foliage disease from the frequent wetting of the leaves. I hope if they return this year the IGR will work with no more than two applications like it did the last two years.

Bill

[aclum]

Hi Naysen and Lyco (and anyone else following this),

Found it!! (Veg vs gen truss photos). Check out the photos towards the end of the article. I think the photos of the truss were the ones I'd remembered. Sorry for the confusion re: pedicel vs peduncle! Here's the link:

http://www.tomatoesnz.co.nz/document...h08-sent-f.pdf

I went out and examined some of my plants this morning and took a couple of photos that I'll try to post later. Basically, I "determined" ("decided" might be a better word <g>) that the Grandeur is predominately generative and the Katana is predominately vegetative. I couldn't really tell on the Momotaro as not enough new flowers/buds.

One interesting thing I noticed is that Grandeur has a very slightly lighter greenish blue tint to the leaves that shows up in the plants that are grafted on it as compared to the controls. Irregardless of the control/scion variety I can usually tell which ones were grafted to the grandeurs just by glancing at the leaf color.

Anne

[lycoperson]

Glad you found the article! Those pics do illustrate the peduncle angles very nicely. I'll post them here for discussion's sake. I looked at my plants and did not find any that were overly vegetative to get a good color image.

On the first pic below you can see that the peduncle leaves the main stem in a more vertical manner than is good. It sticks upward too much, and the length of the truss before the first flower is quite elongated. This is a plant that is too vegetative and needs intervention to make it more generative. Stick clusters need support to prevent the truss from kinking, which would reduce the assimilate to the fruits.



In the second pic below, you can see that the peduncle is more stout and it leaves the main stem at a good angle. The plant has large leaves spaced close together on the main stem. We can't see the top of the plant, so we don't know if it is too
generative or just nicely generative.

[z_willus_d]

I mentioned my first ripe tomato (non-cherry) in the first post above. Well I picked it a couple days back and it ripened fully on the counter. This Vintage Wine beefsteak isn't the prettiest tomato on the block (note skull and bones w/ my first zucchini), but it was very welcome sliced on our first BLT for the season last night. I'd say flavor-wise, it fell a bit flat, but my experience has always been that the first of season picks are always wanting in the flavor/texture categories.

I also through in a pic of my "corn field" from the work garden. It's Raybo's Gotta Have It variety from Gurney's. The best.
-naysen