Coeur d'Albenga Tomato

[carolyn137]

JOhn, if it were me, which it's not, I sure would grow the Johnny's Piriform one b'c there havebeen rave reviews for it at other places where I read. Lots of heirloom varieties have green shoulders and it's b'c they don't have the uniform ripening gene but they do ripen up on the inside.

The Italians and Spanish PREFER green shouldered varieties.

And I think I'd grow the Johnny's one since the Goldman one is a dehybridized something that's fairly recent as I see it.

Your choice entirely.

[Lamb Abbey Orchards]

Carolyn:

I'm not basing my decision on what the Italians and Spanish prefer, but on what *I* do. And I'm Italian, by the way.

Johnny's Piriform just looks so gosh darnoodley anemic on their website. It looks like it was ripened in an Alaskan hothouse in February.

I'll add the Piriform from Johnny's in 2011 if I'm not happy with what I get in 2010.

Thanks again for your input though. It's appreciated.


John

[Moonglow]

Wow, I've been watching this thread, and Tomate Liguria looks like mine...TSC - Territorial seed Company is contacting their supplier and Italy and hopefully we'll find out more soon enough!

[jeffinsgf]

Moonglow,

Did you notice the picture John posted from an Italian market where the basket of tomatoes was marked "Cuori di Bue"? I guess that is where Territorial gets their information...from the country of origin. It may not be what American tomato experts call a heart, but it appears it is what Italian tomato sellers and buyers call a heart! lol

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Wow, I've been watching this thread, and Tomate Liguria looks like mine...TGS is contacting their supplier and Italy and hopefully we'll find out more soon enough!

Moonglow, I'm confused.

TGS, and I assume you mean Tomato Growers Supply, lists no piriform type varieties so wouldn't be contacting anyone in Italy.

But if you look at post 11 in this thread and subseqent posts you'll see that Baker Creek did follow through when it became known that their German Red Strawberry was not GRS and was able through their suppliers to get information back that POSSIBLY the variety BCreek was offering was D'Albenga.

What am I missing here about TGS contacting someone in Italy?

[Moonglow]

My sincerest apologies! TSC - Territorial Seed Company!!!

[Frog]

Seeds sold in the European Union have to be from cultivars listed on The European Common List, as such in the EU there should not be too much confusion of names. I don't know where you lay your hands on a copy of the common list, but where one cultivar goes under many names it probably lists them together.

I hate the common list, it cripples genetic diversity and hampers distribution of amateur bred cultivars.

[jeffinsgf]

Frog,

I'm not sure your "common list" is working perfectly. A bit further up in this thread you can see a basket of tomatoes marked "Cuori di Bue" which are clearly a pyriform shape, yet Bavicchi's seeds shows "Cuor di Bue" as a true heart.

[Frog]

I know, but you may find on the common list that the name is listed as an alternative name for more than one cultivar, or somesuch.

[tomatoaddict]

I researched the tomato John is talking about last winter. It is known by any of these names:
Liguria
Coeur d'Albenga
Coeur de Liguria

It is from the town of Albenga in Liguria, Italy... thus the 3 names it is know by.

[jeffinsgf]

Phil Winteregg is the General Manager of Italian Seed and Tool and Gourmet Seeds. I ran across them while searching for English cucumbers. They have quite a selection of Italian tomatoes, and seem to have some good connections and a better than average commitment to their customer. This is the latest in a series I've received from Phil, regarding the Cuori di Bue confusion.

Dear Jeff,
Thanks for the additional information and the image!
I found the image interesting, as I had never seen the giant pear referred
to as an ox heart, so I did some digging. We have contact with most of
the major seed producers/suppliers in Italy and a shelf full of their
catalogs. I could only find one that identified a giant pear as an ox
heart, but even then it was labeled as a regional selection.
Also interesting for this producer, they had both ox hearts and giant
pears in their catalog, but had this regional strain listed next to their
regular giant pear and not the ox heart. This is a producer that does
have some contact here in the US, so it may be Territorial's source, both
for the seed and the name (the images showed a very similar fruit). From
this very unscientific approach, my guess is that for most of Italy, they
make the distinction as we do, but there may be a regional variety or two
identified differently.
For us, we're going to continue to name them as we have, as we believe to
call a giant pear an ox heart is to only add to the confusion, and they
are two distinctively different tomatoes.
We have found identification of varieties from Europe to be somewhat
problematic. Every year it seems we discover something new about a
variety that we have perhaps carried for years. Additional problems are
created when the Europeans classify plants by botanical name differently
than we do here. More than once we've been chewed out by some dear soul
on a mission to make sure we know how stupid we are!
However, we understand fully that classification and naming--especially of
old, regional heirlooms--is not an exact science. Although we appreciate
the work and promotion that folks like Carolyn Male do (and we certainly
do pay attention), we never get directly involved with those discussions.
Our approach is to simply relay the information as best as we can
determine it to be true and accurate, and enjoy the fruit of our labors.
All the rest doesn't really change how a variety performs or satisfies our
needs or how good it tastes.
Thanks, again, for the additional information and the background of what
is going on! It will be interesting to see if there is any more fall out
from this.
Regards,
Phil

[carpi]

I'm definitely not an expert, but being Italian, and living in Torino (less than 100 miles from Liguria, Albenga and Cuneo) maybe my point of view could be of help.
As you already know, Albenga is a town in Liguria region, on the seaside, which is well known for tomatoes.
Cuneo is another town, not far, in the southern Piemonte region (with a bit colder climate), but i never heard anything special about tomatoes from there.
"Cuore di bue" (this is the correct spelling) simply means "ox hearth", and it is the label under which go 99% of all the hearth shaped, or pear shaped, or boat shaped tomatoes which are sold in Italy: maybe long time ago "cuore di bue" was a variety, but now there are dozens of varieties, both hybrid and OP, which go under that label (as you can see here: http://www.actahort.org/members/show...knrarnr=807_22 or, more extensively, but in italian, here: http://www.venetoagricoltura.org/upl...E_IV_CV_PV.pdf )
Albenga and Liguria are often used as "sublabels", added to the general "cuore di bue" label, to identify tomatoes grown in the nothwestern part of Italy, which are generally pear shaped.
As for seeds to try, I have some saved from "Albenga" tomatoes that I bought on the market (gorgeous, and delicious, and quite pricey; i should also have some pictures, somewhere), and some commercially sold here as "cuor di ponente" (ponente being western part of Liguria); I didnt plant any of them this year, maybe next year, but in any case I will have some to spare, so let me know if you are interested.

[jeffinsgf]

Carpi,

Thank you so much for your input. The ones I purchased from Baker Creek have supposedly been tracked down and identified as d'Albenga. Whatever they are, I dearly love them, and they will hold a prominent place in my tomato patch next year.

I have also purchased Italian seed for the variety Periforme Abruzzese. Looking at a map, it looks like these come from an area further south from Liguria. Do you have any experience with this regional variety?

[carolyn137]

"Cuore di bue" (this is the correct spelling) simply means "ox hearth", and it is the label under which go 99% of all the hearth shaped, or pear shaped, or boat shaped tomatoes which are sold in Italy: maybe long time ago "cuore di bue" was a variety, but now there are dozens of varieties, both hybrid and OP, which go under that label

*****

Here's the problem as I see it.

If Cuore di Bue , which does mean oxheart, which does mean HEART shaped, which does mean a fruit that is wide at the top and then tapers down to a blunt or pointy end, also means PEAR shaped, then I see that as a major problem as the situation has developed in Italy.

It also helps explain the huge mixup in what has been offered here in the US by at least some wholesale seed sellers in Italy selling to wholesalers here in the US and I assume elsewhere.

What I can see is that there's been a change over time in what the Italian seed folks have been doing with respect to variety names, etc., and yes, I read both of your links.

In the early 90's I was given seeds from italy for Cuore di Bue in a commercial pack and they were red and heart shaped. And listings in the SSE YEarbook for that variety have always been the same.

I think it was in this thread that I linked to a picture of Cuore du Bue as sold by Grow Italian, which is what most of us know for that variety and it's a red heart shaped variety. Bill at Grow Italian gets ALL of his seeds from Franchi in Italy and Franchi has been in the seed buisness there for 256 years.

So yes, I do believe that Cuore di Bue is a distinct variety and shouldn't be confused with a pear shaped ( pyriform) shaped variety. You just can't have ONE variety name, whose name indicates it's HEART shaped, for two distinctly shaped fruits, one heart and one pear shaped.

if that's the current trend in ITaly then I think that's not a very good trend for many of us. I'm 70, old lady that I am, LOL, who knows Cuore di Bue as a heart shaped variety.

But I very much appreciate your post b'c it goes a LONG way in explaining WHY there's such a mixup and misunderstanding of seeds imported from Italy that are pear shaped and one case Ided as German Red Strawberry, which is a heart, or as Cuor di Bue, which is also a heart, at several seed sites online.

I think that the seed wholesalers in Italy need to give more information to the seed wholesalers in the US and elsewhere that they export to as to exactly what they're selling.

At another website the German Red Strawbeery one was said to be d'Albenga when the seed was traced back to italy, as I'm sure you read above. Not good.

However, as I also commented, Johnny's Selected Seeds probably got it closet to being right when it IDed the large red pear at their site as being just Piriform ( pyriform) b'c it's becoming clear that they couldn't attach a specific name to it either.

So thanks again, and I do hope that in the future there's better communication between Italian and US wholesalers and that quite a few sites have been and will continue to sell seeds for Cuore di Bue as a distinct red HEART shaped variety which it has always been in the past.

[carpi]

i have no direct experience with pera d'abruzzo, it seems to be an old variety, which local authorieties are trying to restore
Carolyn, i agree with you that the situation is a total mess, and that there is no sense in calling cuore what is shaped like a pear, but i think the problem is not just in communication between wholesalers, the problem is that italian consumers seem to have lost the perception of what cuore means
If i go to any market, or supermarket, to check what is sold as cuore di bue, the last thing that i can expect to find is heart shaped tomatoes
they could be pear shaped, but more likely they will be something like these:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...i_bue_3in1.jpg
http://www.vitatrentina.it/var/vitat..._bue_large.jpg
http://www.ifioridelbene.com/img/p/33-84-large.jpg
even the one attached (my production) would definitely be considered a cuore di bue
so "cuore di bue" doesnt really tell much about shape, but, to be honest, in fact they all taste similar, and quite delicious, i must add