Debate: autumn cold ruins tomato flavor

[greggf]

Some people insist that their cool weather, late summer/autumn tomatoes have no loss in flavor. They say that they enjoy eating these tomatoes right up until frost or freeze.

I say that, in my experience, these tomatoes - the ones that sit out in 40 degree nights, even if the days warm up - suffer a profound loss of flavor, and taste skunky, musky, off, sour, watery, mealy, whatever.

I suggest that people who eat late season tomatoes are just, psychologically, unable to let go of summer, or are unable to "waste" such "good" and "free" fruit. I also question whether these people know what they say about tomato taste in general, and have to discount their evaluations of varieties in general............

[Grub]

Hi 3Gs,

I think you are right about the loss of flavour in late-season tomatoes, however, I think you are wrong in questioning whether or not people enjoy eating them right up to the end.

I think any homegrown mater, early or late, beats the pants off anything you can buy even in the height of the comercial growing season. I don't get skanky down here at all.

Of course, there comes a point where a tomato plant can no longer produce decent fruit and should be yanked. Maybe yours in your climate are past their effective life?

Here, I reckon I might be able to grow them year round if I tried. But where would be the fun in that?

All the best,
G.

[matereater]

Gregg, great timing, I was just thinking about this the other day as our night temps here in southeast Michigan have been dropping lately into the mid 50's. I never put tomatoes in the fridge which people say ruins the flavor, so how would cooler night temps be any different? because the tomato is still on the plant and still growing?? Maybe Dr. C. could shed some scientific explanation?

[Tomatovator]

Later tomatoes still make fine sauce. If you don't like them raw cook with them.

[barkeater]

There is no comparison between a tomato on the vine with a 40 degree night and a picked tomato in the fridge. On the vine, it is still alive with fluids flowing back and forth while enlarging and ripening.

And I agree that late season tomatoes lose flavor, but not until October in the north when the sun is weaker, the days get colder too, and the vines reach old age. Throw in a cold, heavy rain, and the season is over.

When the gel in the tomato gets watery, its over flavorwise.

I personally find peak flavor corresponds with peak plant production, whether it is in July, August, or September.
And if there is a dry spell during this period, so much the better for flavor.

[greggf]

I think someone - Mischka? Suze? someone else?? - mentioned long ago that some specific temp - 55? 50?? - is the magic number when it comes to flavor in tomatoes.

It was 44 two nights ago and 43 last night. Yikes.

[nctomatoman]

There is another factor that would be interesting to factor in. Notwithstaning the temperature situation, I've also noticed that plants that are very mature - been pumping out the fruit since spring, yet soldier on - start to just lose it in terms of producing fruit that look good - vibrant color, unblemished, as large as the earlier ones. I think that a descrease in the local fertility around the plants and a general loss of effectiveness of the plants' plumbing also contribute. Down here in hot Raleigh, where we don't really get the cooler temps until very late, the late fruit from plants that experience very little in terms of real temp drop off (into the 40-50 range, anyway), there is a noticeable descrease in quality - flavor and appearance. One more factor - the angle of the sun - it is much less intense, I suspect that the plants late in the year have less potential photosynthesis activity.

So, the scientist in me sees this is as a multivariable situation.

What would be a good control would be setting out fresh plants midseason that are pumping out the late fruit when the plants are in their prime. I am doing that this year, but the control is not there, since they are all different varieties than I planted initially!

[carolyn137]

mater, I don't have anything scientific to add at all, just my own personal observations. I can read that this or that should happen, and some say does happen, but again, what I experience is all I can speak to.

And that's the same as what Gregg is reporting.

When the night temps start going down to the 40's, that's when I see anthracnose coming to life on the fruit exteriors and that's when the fruits become watery and lousy tasting.

It doesn't matter what the day highs are, b'c there's always, or usually, Indian Summer, but for me it's the night temps that start the downhill trend in fruit quality.

Of course this year I'm not so worried b'c it's been the lousiest year ever re tomatoes for me, so night temps aren't going to bother the quality of my tomatoes b'c esseentially there aren't any.

[montanamato]

There is no magiac number for temp, because as with most things tomato ,there are so many other variables to consider...
Barkeater is right about the precip...We rarely get any showers or measurable precip in Sept and early October, our plants are still at the peak of production and the temp swings are definately not ruining them...
Plus I think (ok this is my very one sided opinion) that I grow such superior tasting varieties to the stores (Early Girl tastes bad to me at peak summer) that a Victoria for example, that is starting to lose flavor, is head and tails above most others I can get at that time...
I remember about 15 years ago making Salsa in October (mid October), and the plants were loaded with medium sized reds that were so good we were eating more raw then we were canning...
I don't doubt that a wet fall and plants that are nearly spent, or poorer tasting varieties aren't worth protecting...I just don't have those problems...I guess it is our reward for all the dust , grasshoppers, and wind we have during peak summer...
I enjoy fall in the garden best. I can work in comfortable conditions. The sun is going down at 9 pm and the long , very warm days produce some of the best tomatoes on the vine...Not just for cooking....

Jeanne

We can debate for months, but 20 plus years of gardening, involving hundreds of varieties in this area won't change my mind......I intend to be eating great , fresh tomatoes until Thanksgiving...Last year I was eating fresh tomatoes from containers and my cold frame until mid November....

[barkeater]

Craig, when I was farming in NJ, I would stagger my plantings so I had fresh transplants going in until the 4th of July, mostly Jet Stars. So I had healthy plants that started producing the end of September. Although the plants hit peak production in mid October, about that time the flavor would begin to tail off. Their color when ripe wouldn't be a vibrant as earlier, but more muted. I think it does have a lot to do with the reduced daylength and angle of the sun that time of year too, as much as temperature, since these plants were at full maturity and not old.

[feldon30]

Sungold becomes inedible for me when cool temps (40's) come around.

[MsCowpea]

This year I want to pay more attention to the effects of temperature--I always thought it must be negatively effecting flavor but I know other S. Fl. growers who think the flavor is improved.

Plus we are growing when the sun is very low in the sky and with short days. (ie eventually getting dark around 6 pm)

I am not talking about alot of cold days--for instance I just looked it up for the 06/07 season. I remember it as being a very warm winter--hardly any winter at all. I checked for days that were 55 and below. In Nov. we had 6 days (lowest was 44).

Dec. only one day (55 degrees) (Compare this to 2005 when we had 12 days 55 and below).

But in Jan and Feb 2007 , just when you would have alot of tomatoes on the vines it got 'colder'.

In Feb there were 8 days. We even had 2 days when it went to 39!!!! degrees. Brrrrr- everybody was freezing. What, if anything, would this do to the tomatoes?

I don't know if just a couple days will effect the flavor of tomatoes or if you need many days.

This year I will do taste test prior to cold weather and then again after.

"Of course this year I'm not so worried b'c it's been the lousiest year ever re tomatoes for me, so night temps aren't going to bother the quality of my tomatoes b'c esseentially there aren't any."

Carolyn, I only have one word for you. EARTHBOX
Well, here are a few more. As you can't grow your own tomatoes there is no way a helper can fail with an EB
as long as it was set up correctly.

It will beat a regular container hands down unless you can keep up with all the fertilizing a regular container requires. With an EB all you do is add the fertilizer at the beginning and never do a single thing to it except water.

Next year you should try one as an experiment --your helper will be picking tons of tomatoes. Yes, you can get tomatoes from regular containers (I have about 30 of those too) but it is not easy unless you are personally looking after them.

[korney19]

Autumn cold? Despite what Barkeater says about summer now gone, The low last night was 55, but lows in the 60's will return this week... even lows in the upper 60's. I expect at least another 3-4 weeks of good growing weather.

Mark

(Gregg, you coming to the Buffalo-Niagara Tastefest/party?)

[Suze]

Originally Posted by greggf

I think someone - Mischka? Suze? someone else?? - mentioned long ago that some specific temp - 55? 50?? - is the magic number when it comes to flavor in tomatoes.

It was 44 two nights ago and 43 last night. Yikes.

Gregg, I'm not sure if I've mentioned a specific temp (maybe it was someone else), but extended duration of even high 40's nights seem to do them in flavorwise for my sometimes picky tastes. One or two nights, not so much.

I find low 40's to be a different story, it seems to just take a handful of nights.

Another thing going on, I think, is the hours of good sun are vastly reduced in my neck of the woods when I'd be likely to experience those kind of temps (sun = photosynthesis = flavor). And they may be in your area too, for all I know. Meaning, the combo of the low temps and the lack of sun will really make a noticeable difference in taste for me.

That's why I tell those in warm zones that grow a second fall crop to keep in mind that the ideal location for plants in spring/summer (some shading for first crop is beneficial here) may not be the ideal location for a fall crop.

[Suze]

Originally Posted by MsCowpea

Carolyn, I only have one word for you. EARTHBOX

I think she should try a few too, and see how it goes.

Here, they would have to be filled everyday. However... tplant on DG is using the auto watering system for them that attaches to the faucet, which might make it even easier. From what I've read, he seems to be pleased with the results.

Then, all she'd have to do is pick (or get her helper to do that for her).