Black Pepper Tomato info...??

[Whwoz]

Nice looking tomatoes, pity our quarantine regs prevent us importing them, I'd be sticking my hand up for seed as well.

Woz

[travis]

Originally Posted by MarinaRussian

Bill, that's what I was told not too long ago and that "your" Snickers is a cherry.

Could be. But if so, the only two yellow, round cherries that possibly could've arisen from anything I've done would come from Green Giant x Yellow Submarine, which produced a few ping pong size yellow and green lines I did not pursue past about F4, and another true cherry line I selected from a Chinese hybrid grow-out and sent to a fellow in Carolina whose nickname is Paprika and which I named Chain-O-Ball (the coloquial name we called an ornamental tree from China that was common in Mississippi when I was growing up) because the cherry tomato trusses are long chains of little golden balls (like the little fruit on that Chinese tree of my youth).

There was another line of pear shaped cherries that came from a cross I made several years ago, and from which Susan Anderson found some cute bicolor pear shaped cherries that I passed along to a couple of guys who are friends of Marianne, but those were labeled "Sutex" on the packets.

I truly don't recall anything named Snickers. But again, that could be my CRS kicking in.

[TedB]

Only stupid is as stupid does news for 2015. It took a lot of smarts to mix my Black Pepper & Helen Spanring ox heart seeds. I had Black Peppers coming out of my ears. Lesson learned I hope. Summer of '15 I hope is a sign of more warm temps to come. A good half of the 'standards' colored in late July..and a few surprise Sudduth's Brandys the 1st week of Sept. That's a tomato.

Still looking for a black that will "taste-up" to Black Cherokee. Krims, Tula, Carbons, Paul R + 20 others are still pretty much okay taste seconds out here on the Hood Canal...sure a few beat the pants off of PC for Farmer's Market 'looks.') I've always preferred some acid in a tomato/a tight seed cavity/and light on the jell.

Thoughts appreciated re backs with taste that I might be missing/need a couple more grow-outs before pulling the seeds. When it comes to outdoor tomatoes (sweet peppers too) West of Seattle on the Hood Canal isn't Union County, Ill. Happy garlic country, but that's for another time.

[Zeedman]

In 2013, Redbarron sent me seed for Black Pepper and Snickers in trade, and I grew both for comparison, in plots 6 miles apart. Had I realized there was a thread on them, I would have posted the results earlier.

This was Black Pepper:

And this was Snickers:

Black Pepper was 2.5-3" W X 3.5-4" long, avg. weight 5.8 oz, had few seeds, and was drier that Snickers. The plants were grown on one of my less fertile plots, but the productivity was OK; it would probably have been better on more fertile ground.

Snickers was far & away the more productive, one of the best yields I've ever had from a "paste" tomato - Redbarron was not exaggerating. While the average weight was smaller (5.3 0z.), there were many megablooms, with weights up to 12 oz. They were juicier than Black Pepper, and cooked down to sauce very easily. The vines were also quite vigorous, they virtually carpeted the ground... the weeds there never had a chance. I found that I preferred Snickers for cooking, since they broke down so quickly; the Black Pepper was mixed with San Marzano Redorta for sauce.

While I did not bag blossoms, I grow tomatoes 20-30 feet apart when saving seed, with other flowering vegetables between. If anyone is still looking for seed, send me a PM, I still have some of both.

[TedB]

Z..interesting. I got my BP from Iva Gras (near Novo Mesto in Slovenia) about the same time you got yours from Redbarron in Oklahoma...that' one ocean apart. Question for another day is where did Redbarron source his BP seed? Maybe we have a seed source tennis match going.

[Aubergine]

really interesting yes

I was looking for seeds but as I read here, this both varieties are only good for sauce ?
If they are not good for salad, I think I do not like them

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Aubergine

really interesting yes

I was looking for seeds but as I read here, this both varieties are only good for sauce ?
If they are not good for salad, I think I do not like them

I like the flavor and juicyness of snickers in a salad, but I have plenty of salad tomatoes, The really unique thing about snickers is how well it makes sauce. It breaks down fast while cooking, so you don't need to over cook it. That makes your sauce really "fresh" tasting. I got my snickers, which has had a name change I hear, from Marina in Russia. I wish I could explain it better. Unlike most sauce tomatoes, Snickers is not as dry, but it actually cooks down to sauce faster than the dry sauce tomatoes. It is a trait I never saw before in a tomato. A typical "juicy" tomato will separate in the sauce and be runny, and a "dry" sauce tomato won't do that, but takes longer to cook than Snickers. It is kinda hard to describe, but I like it whatever it is.

As far as black pepper, keep in mind that snickers was originally supposed to be Cherniy Ispolin, might have been black pepper, but Marina found that it really wasn't either, so gave it a new name. snickers. as in teeheehee. Or in Russian xexexe SEE POST #15 This thread. Now the name has changed again, so who knows? All I know is that I love the tomato because it makes great sauce and is very productive.

Now black pepper is still somewhat of a mystery to me. Got those seeds somewhere else and it seems as if there are two or more different tomatoes going by that name too.

Doesn't matter. It was worth discovering Snickers, AKA Marinas fake Black Pepper, AKA fake Cherniy Ispolin, AKA Deep Space.

PS Zeedman, I am asking that those I sent Snickers to send a few seeds back so I can check them. I had a seed disaster in the form of a strong storm with a tornado blow around my seed saving jars that were fermenting outside. So just to make sure that anyone with seeds from me has the right thing, I am checking them against what I originally got from Marina. We don't need even more confusion surrounding this great tomato. Enough as it is! Cancel that Zeedman. I just looked and saw you already sent some back for comparison. My bad.

[Aubergine]

thank you Redbaron for this explications about Snickers
I think I understand what you mean, this must be a really special thing

and what some people call Black Pepper still remains mysterious

[TedB]

Hi..BP is just so-so regarding taste for us/me here. It's a good looking tomato for me: color/s, uniform shape, little shoulder scaring/cat-facing, productive (7+kg.) We are cool here. Normally only a few hours (3 or 4) over 27C on the 10 or 15 days when it reaches 30+C. All things being equal (genetics DOES count): heat = taste, but you know that. My guess the Bern, lower Valais, Konstanz regions would be the most favorable for BP 'taste.' I 2+m stake, double stem, leaf prune mine. This past summer BP started to color the 4th week of August. Hope this helps.

[Aubergine]

I would like to say once more thank you very much to Zeedman for the seed of Black Pepper and Snickers and I would like to show you the result

Sorry I do not understand how I can write between the pictures

Nr. 1 left side Snickers, right side Black Pepper

Nr.2 + 3 Black Pepper
Nr. 4 + 5 Snickers

and yes, they are different

[Dutch]

I grew 2 Deep Space tomato plants last year (2016). Both plants were RL (regular leaf) and were loaded with an assortment of various sizes and shapes of fruit. I saved seeds from the largest long fruits on each plant. Seeds from fruit #1 produced 3 RL plants and 36 PL plants. Fruit #2 produced 9 all PL plants.* I have a total of 48 plants in the garden from Deep Space seeds. I highly doubt a mix up in seeds, but I am not perfect so that possibly does exist.
DeepSpace2016a.jpg
Has anyone who was grown Black Pepper, Snickers or Deep Space, have a plant that had PL (potato leaves)?
Dutch
*Seeds of fruit #2 had been treated with a bleach solution and the germination rate was greatly diminished.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I grew 2 Deep Space tomato plants last year (2016). Both plants were RL (regular leaf) and were loaded with an assortment of various sizes and shapes of fruit. I saved seeds from the largest long fruits on each plant. Seeds from fruit #1 produced 3 RL plants and 36 PL plants. Fruit #2 produced 9 all PL plants.* I have a total of 48 plants in the garden from Deep Space seeds. I highly doubt a mix up in seeds, but I am not perfect so that possibly does exist.
Attachment 74305
Has anyone who was grown Black Pepper, Snickers or Deep Space, have a plant that had PL (potato leaves)?
Dutch
*Seeds of fruit #2 had been treated with a bleach solution and the germination rate was greatly diminished.

I have grown several and none were PL.

[Zeedman]

All the BP & Snickers plants that I grew were regular leaf indeterminate.

[bower]

I looked over my data from the grow in 2015 to see if there could have been a cross that produced these results, by sending you an accidental F1 cross. I think it is not possible that the seed you grew from me was an F1 cross with a PL allele. If I had grown a large PL black that year, then the plants you grew last year could have been an F1 with the PL allele and variable shapes of large blacks. But there was none.
There was actually one plant with both a black and a PL allele in it - my Kitten Paws Pink F2, which segregated a black and a PL in the F3 the year after - but this line are all quite small fruit from a cross between Stupice and Black Cherry. You would not possibly have large fruit with the shapes typical of Deep Space in that F1 cross, as the small size genetics really dominate and would reduce the F1 fruit size a lot.
As regards the larger and also the pointy shaped fruit, there was either no black or no PL in any of the plants grown that year. If there was a cross with a non black, you would have had red fruit last year. Those with black fruit alleles had no PL in the line. In the OP's, Ukraine Purple is an obvious candidate with the right color and shape but no PL there. I grew the Ukraine Purple out this year for my friend's farm and the seedlings were all RL wispy as expected no sign of a cross.

So it seems impossible that the seed you grew last year was crossed with a PL the year I grew it.

Also if the plant was crossed by a bee in your field last year, PL would not show up in the F1 because like black it is recessive. You wouldn't see any PL for another generation.

If there was a PL in the original cross? involving Cherniy Ispolin? then Scott or Zeedman who grew many plants would have found some PL's in the expected ratio one in four more or less.

And one further thing, the ratio of PL you described is way too high even for an F2, where you would only expect to see one in four plants PL.

I hope this makes sense, I just had to write it down to work my way through all the possibilities.

So I think it is more likely, that you have a seed mixup - the plants will likely grow out to be something else not Deep Space at all.

Not to worry, I will send you more seeds.

[Dutch]

Thank you Redbaron and Zeedman for answering my PL question.
Thank you Marina for sharing your seeds and your input in this thread.
Thank you Bower for your excellent analysis of the genetics and kindness.
Dutch