novice gardner with tomato issues

[pyxiestix]

thanks all for your replies - i will take everything into consideration when i get to the store.


to ted:
we're gonna try & take the kids to see the big chicken this time around...lol
i'll definitely wave left as we go by

[Blueaussi]

Originally Posted by TZ-OH6

It looks like there is alot of fresh organic matter in your soil. As the soil warms this time of years it activates bacteria that feed on the organic matter and pull nitrogen away from the plants. In addition you may also be seeing yellowing from higher light levels than the plant is used to. Nitrogen, again is the answer to greening them up so a shot of liquid fertilizer might really help the plants until they can get enough roots out to forage for nutrients better.

They've had blood meal, which is mostly nitrogen; and the symptoms are not consistent with what I identify as nitrogen deficiency. I'm curious as to what you're seeing that you id as nitrogen deficiency?

[dice]

[soil and fertilizer first; actual disease second]

In general, tomatoes like a nice, loose soil rich in organic
matter that is not particularly high in nitrogen. You doubtless
have a fair amount of clay in your soil in your location, even
if it is not obvious looking at it. That is not necessarily bad, it
holds water and nutrients really well in hot weather, but too
much clay compared to the decaying organic matter makes
a soil that tends to be acid and lacks air space, which annoys
soil microbes, plant roots, etc. Your soil does not really look
like a virtually all-clay soil, so let us not worry about that for
the moment.

Here is a fertilizer designed for tomatoes, that has been found
to work well in containers, where the soil is not having much
of an input to the nutrients available ("old" Tomato-Tone; the
new version is different, and the differences have been
discussed elsewhere). Notice primarily the N-P-K values,
ie nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium:

http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilize...spx?pname=4739

(The trace elements are significant for the plant, too, but some
of them are doubtless available already in an outdoor garden
soil.)

Contrast this with blood meal:

http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilize...spx?pname=4749

It is virtually all nitrogen as far as the plant is concerned. If it
was top-dressed rather than mixed into the soil, it will take
a few weeks to break down and wash into the soil, and you
might see some nitrogen deficiency symptoms at first if the
soil was not already nitrogen-rich (and if it was, adding blood
meal would not be recommended). That one yellow finger of
leaf in one of the pictures and the kind of pale color of some
of those with the white spots and dead foliage tips looks a bit
like nitrogen deficiency, although that problem is going away
in a hurry once the blood meal makes its effect felt.

Normally high nitrogen fertilizers are not recommended for
tomatoes, because the plant's energy and various important
nutrients like calcium all go to growing new plant instead
of to developing fruit. Fruitset is delayed, and the demand for
calcium from new leaves that are developing contributes to
Blossom End Rot (BER), a calcium deficiency disease of the
fruit. There are other ways for the plant to get BER (large
moisture variations and temperature stresses), but it is still
a symptom of calcium defiency in the fruit, and high nitrogen
soils make it worse (by redirecting what calcium the roots take
in elsewhere than to the fruit).

You probably want to get a soil test done by a county
agriculture extension (they often do them for free, or for
a minimal charge, depending on the state). You can ignore
their exact recommendations for what to add to your soil,
which will be designed for large scale farmers, with an emphasis
on chemical fertilizers. You just want to see what the pH is
(do you need to add lime) and what the phosphorus levels are
(do you need to add rock phosphate). Consider information on
nitrogen and potassium supplementary, since those are easy
to adjust and are going to change anyway once you grow some
kind of crop in a garden.

Some things to avoid forever: sulfate of ammonia (all nitrogen
and kills earthworms); muriate of potash (all potassium and
kills earthworms). There is a product called "Alaska MorBloom",
produced by Lilly Miller, that is all phosphorus and potassium.
In theory it would be ideal for a garden that had only blood
meal added, but the source of potassium in it is muriate of
potash, and it is foolish to fertilize a garden with something
that kills earthworms when there are plenty of alternatives
that do not.

Common sources of phosphorus include bone meal, rock
phosphate, fish bone meal, superphosphate, and "blossom
boosters" (commercial packaged fertilizers high in phosphorus).
Fish fertilizers usually have some, too, and dry organic fertilizers
like alfalfa meal and seed meals will have some phosphorus.

Your best choice here is probably a cup of rock phosphate
spread in a circle around each plant about 1' from the stem
and worked into the soil up to 6 inches deep. (Bone meal takes
too long to break down to add it this late in the season, and
rock phosphate lasts longer anyway, for years.) My second
choice would be a couple of tablespoons of superphosphate
worked into the soil around each plant.

Potassium sources include greensand (very slow release, not
really useful as a primary potassium source the same year it
is added), sul-po-mag (a kind of ground-up rock, lots of
potassium, not as slow release as greensand), molasses,
potassium sulfate (powder or pellets), kelp meal, and the dry
organics mentioned above contain some potassium. Compost
and manures usually have a modest amount of potassium as
well.

Potassium is one thing tomatoes need plenty of, especially
when setting fruit. If you could find it, a 5-lb bag of potassium
sulfate would probably be perfect for you, working a cup of
it into the soil around each plant and scattering a second cup
on top of the soil when they start to set fruit. Finding 5-lb
bags of it may be hard to do, though. The next size up is
probably 50 lbs, and in that quantity the sul-po-mag is
probably a better choice (also not easy to find; think nurseries
and agricultural supplies).

Kelp meal is an excellent fertilizer, but quite expensive.
(I only use a little of it in my seed starting mix and around
transplanted seedlings. Too expensive to rely on just that
for the plant's potassium needs for the whole season.)

The blossom boosters are uncool here for various reasons. In
the first place, most of them contain a fair amount of nitrogen
along with lots of phosphorus and potassium, and you do not
need more nitrogen this year (the blood meal is possibly
overkill already on that nutrient). Second, they often contain
chemicals that are toxic to earthworms, and earthworms are
your friends.

A potassium alternative would be molasses. Dry molasses
(ground grain coated with molasses, found at feed stores
mostly) could be mixed into the soil around the plants just
like potassium sulfate or sul-po-mag. Liquid molasses (also
found at feed stores, much cheaper than grocery store prices),
would have to be mixed with water and watered in every couple
of weeks. You may find this reasonable to do if you only have a
few plants.

In sum: you have the nitrogen, but you likely need some
phosphorus and potassium as well.

Long term, you can amend your garden with rock phosphate
and greensand, and cover a lot of bases for 5 years or more.
You may need lime, too. Ideal soil pH for tomatoes and many
other vegetables is around 6.5, with anything between 6.0 and
7.2 generally usable without losing nutrients to the chemical
reactions that occur in the soil outside that range.

That is something to adjust gradually, in moderation, a little bit
each year. Too high a pH is harder to fix than a slightly low pH.

Some growers here use nothing but horse manure and/or
compost, mixing it in or top-dressing with it every year,
but it may take a few years of amending your soil before
it gets to the state where that works for you.

There are also no-till growers. They usually grow winter cover
crops for various reasons, and my guess is that their native soil
already has sufficient phosphorus, so that issue never comes
up. A good read from a no-till grower in Pennsylvania:

http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/Publi...es/News10.html

Now on to the disease:

The dead leaf tips do look a bit like sunburn, but you can also
see those from overwatering if the soil stays wet, with no air
spaces around the roots for weeks on end. I bet windburn could
do it, too. The white spots are a complete mystery to me. I have
never seen them on a tomato plant. Maybe something sprayed
on the plant at the nursery that puddled up in spots on the
leaf after a rain?

I would dig one up, put it in a pot, take it back to the nursery,
and ask them if they have any idea what the white spots are.
Maybe someone there recognizes it immediately.

Good luck.:-)

[pyxiestix]

wow thank you...that was extremely informative.

i have a lot to think about & research apparently. who knew a small garden took so much non-dirty work...lol

[dice]

PS: I left out Guano, which may be high nitrogen, high
phosphorus, or both. It is an excellent fertilizer, and the high
phosphorus version would be one way to add mostly that to
a garden that already has plenty of nitrogen and potassium,
but it is quite expensive, even more than kelp meal. It is a
fertilizer where you only need a little (where you might have
used a cup of rock phosphate or bone meal, you probably use
a tablespoon of high-phosphate guano). Like superphosphate
and bone meal, its effect is only going to last for one season.

I like rock phosphate for more reasons than just the phosphorus
and the longevity of it in the soil. It adds a fair amount of
calcium, too, without causing any radical changes in the pH
of the soil.

Growing tomatoes does not have to be complicated. Some
people just scatter 5-10-10 vegetable food around, mix it
into the soil, plant, and water when necessary. Their soil pH
is fine already, they don't have so much clay that roots have
a hard time penetrating it, or so much sand that their plants
dry out without irrigation, their soil has sufficient calcium and
other trace elements, and they don't sweat the earthworms.

Having added blood meal, though, your soil is already different
than the average garden plot. (There are situations where that
is a good idea, by the way, where one has dug or tilled in some
high-carbon material like uncomposted leaves, straw, sawdust,
wood chips, etc. Bacteria and fungi trying to digest them will
suck nitrogen out of the soil the first year, starving the plants.
Blood meal's abundant nitrogen compensates for that.)

Anyway, the growing tips of those seedlings looked healthy,
so at worst you can just cut off the funky looking leaves and
see what happens. A suggestion: put 4 aspirins (any size) in
a jar of hot water and let it sit overnight. Mix 2 tablespoons
of unsulfured molasses in another jar of hot water, stirring
until it is dissolved. Once they have both cooled to room
temperature, pour them into a 1-2 gallon jug or watering can
or whatever, add enough water to fill it up, and water the plants
with it. The aspirin will put the plants' immune systems into
high gear, and the molasses will give them a nice potassium
boost, which generally helps produce healthy plants.

[pyxiestix]

thank you again!...i can definitely do the molasses/aspirin & will try that...as soon as it stops raining *sigh* lol