Interested in Growing a Multiflora Dwarf?

[jmsieglaff]

Exciting times, the first tomatoes off my 19xF2 plants 2 and 3 (plant 2being the center one, multiflora and plant 3 is the taller one with larger cherries, more subtly multiflora). Plant 1 is only a couple days behind.

Plant 2 cherries are red and 5-6g. Plant 3 cherries red and this one was 11g. Plants are being grown in my basement which is a pretty steady 60F (+/- 2F) under 16 hours of lights a day. I haven't grown tomatoes to full maturity under the lights before, much less in these cool of temps, so I was unsure of what to expect. I had a hunch that there would not be a lot of sugar development and that seems true in tasting the firsts. Both were juicy with good texture--both had a rather intense experience being rather acidic and tomatoey with very subtle sweetness. Plant 2 flavor had a little extra element to it, and bit more intense, but it is early and I look forward to tasting all fruits over the coming weeks. I imagine if grown in warmer temps there would be much more sugar production. Just great to get some ripe fruit off these (and fairly quickly after sowing, 128 days for plant 2 and 130 days for plant 3). More updates over the coming weeks.

[jmsieglaff]

We've conducted a couple taste tests for my 19xF2 plants 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. Biggest question is for people who have grown tomatoes in approx. 60F conditions under artificial lights and how the flavor compares to warm weather, sunlight ripened fruit of the same variety.

Plants have been documented here--Plant 1.1 is smallest, not really multi-flora, antho red cherry. Plant 1.2 is medium height (was topped b/c of light height), multiflora, heavily branching red cherry. Plant 1.3 is taller (was topped b/c of light height), branched strongly, flashed multiflora at later flower cluster, but first was single truss--not sure if this plant, unadulterated would qualify as a tall micro or very short dwarf.

Tasting comments:
19xF2, plant 1.1: Antho red cherry 2-5g. Moderate acidity, low sweetness, kinda tomatoy, a slightly off flavor in finish, juicy. Ranked 3 of 3. I'd but it at 5.0 I don't see a need to save seeds even though plant habit was ideal. 133 days from sowing.

19xF2, plant 1.2: Red cherry 5-8g. Fruit split when grown in the basement (admittedly the mix would dry and I would overwater probably a bit, but the other 3 plants did not split). Flavor was better nicely acidic, some sweetness nice tomato flavor, not surprisingly thin skinned, juicy. 6.0-6.5. Strongly multiflora is a plus and I think the flavor could end up quite good not grown under lights in 60F basement------BUT splitting indoors makes me think twice about saving seeds with this one. 128 days from sowing.

19xF2, plant 1.3: Red cherry 9-14g. No splitting, no antho. They resemble the F1 the most of the 3 plants. Nice flavor--good burst of acid, moderate sweetness, nice richness. 7.0. Second truss was multiflora, so that's good and I do think under better conditions this could be a very nice tasting tomato. However plant habit was a bit large for what I ideally would want for a micro--so I'm torn on if I save from this either. 130 days from sowing.

So this thread has gotten long, I guess I have two big questions.

1) When plants are basement (60F) grown under lights--how much is sugar production reduced compared to warm summer outdoor conditions?

2) Thoughts on saving seeds from plant 19xF2 plant 1.3. Pro: flavor, some multiflora trusses, heavy branching Con: Plant height, not as strongly multiflora.

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by jmsieglaff

We've conducted a couple taste tests for my 19xF2 plants 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. Biggest question is for people who have grown tomatoes in approx. 60F conditions under artificial lights and how the flavor compares to warm weather, sunlight ripened fruit of the same variety....

.....I guess I have two big questions.

1) When plants are basement (60F) grown under lights--how much is sugar production reduced compared to warm summer outdoor conditions?

2) Thoughts on saving seeds from plant 19xF2 plant 1.3. Pro: flavor, some multiflora trusses, heavy branching Con: Plant height, not as strongly multiflora.

You ask a couple of very good questions. For the first question, I have no answer, but would also like to know. Hopefully someone can supply the answers. If not, let's do some experiments this summer. My assumption is that they would be more flavorful grown in full sun with more warmth. I've seen numerous posts about much more flavor in hot dry conditions - and it makes sense intuitively.

You obviously have a much better palate than I do. After extensive sinus surgery years ago, I miss all the but the strongest smells and lot of the subtle nuances of flavor. For me, it's kind of down to the basics of weak - strong taste, bad - decent - better - best for flavor and sweet - tomatoey - tart for category. Also, in the winter when there is nothing good tasting to compare to, most of them probably taste better than they would in the summer.

As to the second question about whether or not to save seed, that's your call. It depends on what you are looking for. As I have spent more time fooling with these things, I look back and see that I saved seed from many that I have little interest in following up on.

If you want to develop a micro for growing under lights, I have not had very good luck finding tiny F3s from F2s that grew too tall, but have found them occasionally. I've had better results starting more F2s and being very selective, then growing a bunch of F3s from the tiny F2s. They seem to mostly stay small.

My logic is this: I'm growing indoors under lights. The F3s are as likely to segregate for flavor and productvity as they are for size and the tiny ones are much easier to work with. So, I save seed from those with the growth habit I want then hope for better flavor as they segregate. I don't save seed if the flavor is actually BAD, but with my 'taster', very few of these hit the bad category. Time will tell if that approach works.

I will add one more question to yours - How much taller do they get under lights than they would in full sun?

[clkingtx]

On 2/21, I started some 69x F1s; 68x F1s; and 37x F1s and F2s. I am getting some sprouting from all of them, I think. I have them set up under lights, so we'll see how they go!

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by clkingtx

On 2/21, I started some 69x F1s; 68x F1s; and 37x F1s and F2s. I am getting some sprouting from all of them, I think. I have them set up under lights, so we'll see how they go!

Great! Keep us posted. My F1s for both 68X & 69X were destroyed by deer last year, so I can't say what the F1s or F2 are like. I think they will both be dwarf at the largest, although some have surprised me.

Multifloras will be easy to find in 37X. Some of the F1s I've grown from that cross were multiflora and some were not. There must be multiflora somewhere in the ancestry of the Tidy X Pork Chop cross that was the papa for it to show up in an F1.

[Barb_FL]

Dan - In the fall I grew 21x-F2-1 - I think I posted pics at one point. Anyway, this was an excellent red cherry dwarf plant. Probably peaked at 3', great taste, multiflora solid red tomatoes. Ripe tomatoes had great vine and shelf life. I would definitely grow again and have saved seeds.

I'm tempted to start some of my saved seeds even though this is very late for us. Everyone I gave tomatoes to loved it. Tomatoes were slightly larger than average size cherry but not ping-pong ball size.

Do you want any of my saved seeds or should I just keep going with it? I liked it a lot better than last springs 13X-F3-2.

Also, in the MMMM swap I got 11/12x-F3-3. Any idea what it is?

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by Barb_FL

Dan - In the fall I grew 21x-F2-1 - I think I posted pics at one point. Anyway, this was an excellent red cherry dwarf plant. Probably peaked at 3', great taste, multiflora solid red tomatoes. Ripe tomatoes had great vine and shelf life. I would definitely grow again and have saved seeds.

I'm tempted to start some of my saved seeds even though this is very late for us. Everyone I gave tomatoes to loved it. Tomatoes were slightly larger than average size cherry but not ping-pong ball size.

Do you want any of my saved seeds or should I just keep going with it? I liked it a lot better than last springs 13X-F3-2.

Also, in the MMMM swap I got 11/12x-F3-3. Any idea what it is?

Keep going with it. It sounds very much like its mama (21X-F1-1), which I really liked. The F1 was very multiflora, productive and reached 36" inside for me. Send me some seed when/if you get something closer to stability or if you decide not to keep going with it. 21X was a back-cross of an F1 back to its mama. Does that mean it will stabilize more quickly from the F1?

The grandpa is Dwarf Firebird Sweet, which hasn't been released yet, but has large, tasty,attractive, red w/yellow striped fruit. It would be great to see it spin off an equally tasty striped one. Keep going and keep us posted.

As for 11/12X-F3-3, I thought I put a description on each packet I sent in. I put a lot of seed in each packet, perhaps some were repackaged. That one was sent in the micro category. The 11/12X is because I accidentally mixed some F1 fruit from both crosses in one batch of seeds and decided not to throw them out.

The F2 (11/12-F2-3) was PL with very large leaves on a tiny plant (5" leaves on a 12" plant). The first note I made about it was "kinda weird". It was extremely bushy, very multiflora, very productive, had red cherry fruits and only reached 12" in height. It was as wide as it was tall.

Hopefully, it will be fun to grow....

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by dfollett

I am looking for folks who are interested in helping grow out some multiflora dwarfs. I have several crosses - F2 &F3 - that should be fixed for both the multiflora and Dwarf traits - some micros are also possible. Most will be cherry or saladette size, but some have the potential to be larger - they have Brandywine Cowlick’s and Margaret Curtain in their pedigree. How large a fruit can you get in a multiflora? Maybe we'll learn. They also all have the potential for different colors, including stripes.

I am looking for 1) taste ; 2) color ; 3) size and, 4) obviously, production. I also have several micros if you want to grow something in a small pot or on a shelf. I even have a purple, potato-leaf, saladette-size micro multiflora (under 18") that tasted great in the F2.

If you are interested in growing out some multiflora dwarfs (or micros), PM me your address, let me know how many you want to try and I'll send you some seed. All I would ask that you report results and send me seed of anything that stands out.

Dan

I can show you how large fruits one can get with a multiflora,but not how large with a micro.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=34658&page=4

post 47

Carolyn

[Tormato]

Originally Posted by dfollett

Keep going with it. It sounds very much like its mama (21X-F1-1), which I really liked. The F1 was very multiflora, productive and reached 36" inside for me. Send me some seed when/if you get something closer to stability or if you decide not to keep going with it. 21X was a back-cross of an F1 back to its mama. Does that mean it will stabilize more quickly from the F1?

The grandpa is Dwarf Firebird Sweet, which hasn't been released yet, but has large, tasty,attractive, red w/yellow striped fruit. It would be great to see it spin off an equally tasty striped one. Keep going and keep us posted.

As for 11/12X-F3-3, I thought I put a description on each packet I sent in. I put a lot of seed in each packet, perhaps some were repackaged. That one was sent in the micro category. The 11/12X is because I accidentally mixed some F1 fruit from both crosses in one batch of seeds and decided not to throw them out.

The F2 (11/12-F2-3) was PL with very large leaves on a tiny plant (5" leaves on a 12" plant). The first note I made about it was "kinda weird". It was extremely bushy, very multiflora, very productive, had red cherry fruits and only reached 12" in height. It was as wide as it was tall.

Hopefully, it will be fun to grow....

"Some" were repackaged.
No way I was going to write a full description.
That's what T'ville is for.

[jmsieglaff]

Originally Posted by dfollett

If you want to develop a micro for growing under lights, I have not had very good luck finding tiny F3s from F2s that grew too tall, but have found them occasionally. I've had better results starting more F2s and being very selective, then growing a bunch of F3s from the tiny F2s. They seem to mostly stay small.

I will add one more question to yours - How much taller do they get under lights than they would in full sun?

I'm leaning toward going more F2 route for this summer outdoors. For the reasons you mention and because none of the 3 I'm growing indoors really blew me away. I suppose I'm partial to finding a color different than red too, which given the Ambrosia Orange parentage, I would think that is possible.

Your final question is a good one. Perhaps they grow shorter in sunlight just because the intensity is so much higher. We shall see what my next round of F2s will do outside.

I'll still taste a bit and I could always squeeze a couple tomatoes into some water and oxyclean just in case.....you can always throw seeds away, but you can't go back and save them again from any given F2.

[charline]

Dan, I have a question:
Your F3 seeds, if you say they were micro, will all F4 be micro or will there be also dwarfs?
I will plant them direct from the tray in their definitive pot so I would like to know because of the size...

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by charline

Dan, I have a question:
Your F3 seeds, if you say they were micro, will all F4 be micro or will there be also dwarfs?
I will plant them direct from the tray in their definitive pot so I would like to know because of the size...

I can't say for certain because I start a lot more seedlings than I eventually pot up and pot up only the smallest. I am not trying to be scientific and distort the the sample toward the smaller ones. However, as seedlings, the F4s are usually quite uniform in height and the culling usually amounts to selecting the smallest from several that are not too different rather than lopping the tops off a bunch of tall ones and keeping the tiny ones.

I have seen some that get larger than their F3 mama, but not by too much. I have not seen an F4 from a micro that got large enough to call a dwarf. I have seen micros come from dwarf, but not the other way around, but that is what I am culling for.

I think it is safe to say if they look micro compared to the dwarfs as seedlings, they should stay micro.

Please let me know if you see something different.

[Barb_FL]

Originally Posted by Barb_FL

Dan - In the fall I grew 21x-F2-1 - I think I posted pics at one point. Anyway, this was an excellent red cherry dwarf plant. Probably peaked at 3', great taste, multiflora solid red tomatoes. Ripe tomatoes had great vine and shelf life. I would definitely grow again and have saved seeds.

I'm tempted to start some of my saved seeds even though this is very late for us. Everyone I gave tomatoes to loved it. Tomatoes were slightly larger than average size cherry but not ping-pong ball size.

Do you want any of my saved seeds or should I just keep going with it? I liked it a lot better than last springs 13X-F3-2.

I'm quoting myself to give an update. I ended up waiting awhile and then starting some seeds cause I didn't have anything to lose. Starting seeds in early March is so late, but these plants are flowering and have set fruit already. Two of the plants are starting their 2nd cluster of buds/flowers.

The plants are short (about 8") - our nighttime lows for the past week are hovering around 70-72.

These are fast growers and fast producers. I will get a picture uploaded.

[Jimbotomateo]

Originally Posted by Barb_FL

I'm quoting myself to give an update. I ended up waiting awhile and then starting some seeds cause I didn't have anything to lose. Starting seeds in early March is so late, but these plants are flowering and have set fruit already. Two of the plants are starting their 2nd cluster of buds/flowers.

The plants are short (about 8") - our nighttime lows for the past week are hovering around 70-72.

These are fast growers and fast producers. I will get a picture uploaded.

That's great Barb. Just having something growing is uplifting! . Pics please.. Jimbo

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by Barb_FL

I'm quoting myself to give an update. I ended up waiting awhile and then starting some seeds cause I didn't have anything to lose. Starting seeds in early March is so late, but these plants are flowering and have set fruit already. Two of the plants are starting their 2nd cluster of buds/flowers.

The plants are short (about 8") - our nighttime lows for the past week are hovering around 70-72.

These are fast growers and fast producers. I will get a picture uploaded.

That's good news. I hope the F4s are as good as the F3s were. I think I told you this already, but keep going with it and stabilize it.

It will be interesting to see how they handle the heat. They would never see it here. Our nighttime temps in the summer are in the 50s & 60s.