Tomatoville® Gardening Forums


Notices

Forum area for discussing hybridizing tomatoes in technical terms and information pertinent to trait/variety specific long-term (1+ years) growout projects.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 2, 2009   #1
TZ-OH6
Tomatovillian™
 
TZ-OH6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mid-Ohio
Posts: 841
Default Useful technique???

This method might be useful to people trying to cut time off the first step in stabilizing crosses, namely getting F2 seed without a one year turn around, when you don't care what the traits of the F1 plant are. I'm growing two dozen F1 plants in 4" pots under lights on a desk in a spare bedroom. Seeds were started first week of January and the plants are just now coming into bud (about six weeks after sprouting). The plants are 8"-10" tall, and although they have one dwarf parent they are not dwarf plants. Tall seedlings were choosen from dense plantings. Leaf shape and growth are different than other others from same seed.

I'm trying to get F2 seed from some Lime Green Salad x mystery black tomato bee pollinated crosses in time for grow out next summer, so I'm shooting for a single fruit on a stunted plant.

The plants are grown next to a south windowsil under three massive 105 watt compact fluorescents. The plants are surrounded by reflectors, but the reflector next to the window is removed during the day time so that the plants get some direct sun. The fluorescents keep the temps low but the light high (the room themostat is at 65). I have the lights on for an extended period (up to 20 hours a day). I've fertilized with bloom booster high phosphorus, and also a high potassium fertilizer, and they got some epsom salts. The potting mix was poor in nutrients and the plants developed nutrient deficiencies before I broke down and fertilized.

These plants also have suckers forming on 3 or four of the lower leaf axils... seems odd to me at such a young age/small size.


It looks like I just might get my fruits/seeds in time for summer planting and get some F2 selections this year. Not bad with just a desktop in a spare bedroom.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 105 lights web.jpg (75.8 KB, 85 views)
TZ-OH6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2, 2009   #2
travis
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 2,987
Default

I'm trying to get F2 seed from some Lime Green Salad x mystery black tomato bee pollinated crosses in time for grow out next summer.

Tall seedlings were choosen from dense plantings. Leaf shape and growth are different than other others from same seed.
----------------------------------------------------------

I'm a bit puzzled. Shouldn't all the plants from F1 seeds be the same leaf form and growth pattern?

Or are you saying that you can distinguish the F1 seedlings from the open pollinated seedlings because of the different leaf form and growth pattern?

Of the latter, do the seedlings you selected as "F1" all express the same leaf form and growth pattern as each other?

Another question is how do you know that the mystery tomato with which the Lime Green Salad crossed, by bee pollination, was a black tomato?
travis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2, 2009   #3
TZ-OH6
Tomatovillian™
 
TZ-OH6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mid-Ohio
Posts: 841
Default

I'm not possitive but the blacks are the most likely suspects. The lime green salads were planted next to the house at the base of a Black Krim, Paul Robeson, and Black Prince. There were some other varieties in the row, but I figure these blacks will be parents of some/most of the crossed seed due to their size, proximity and amount of flowers.


Dwarfism is a recessive trait so any crossed seeds-seedlings from the Lime Green Salads should show the dominant traits of the other parent early on. Even at the cotyledon stage I could tell/suspect the difference, cotyledon leaves were more pointed, and longer. The crossed seedlings also grew higher than the rest of the crowd (50 seeds per 4" pot). I waited until the first leaf stage before pulling and repotting. At that stage the plants were taller and the shape and textures of the first true leaves was very different. I may have missed some while guessing at that early stage, but none of the ones I guessed at have turned into LGS as they got larger. I am growing some of the typical seedlings in with these.

Even when bees get to a flower the bulk of the seed has been self pollinated. These test fruits had between 5% and 15% crossed seed (F1).

The seed came from four different fruits, and there is variation in the look of the saved F1 seedlings (leaf color and tooth pattern-shape, but all grow like "normal" seedlings) so I'm pretty sure there are multiple fathers.
TZ-OH6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2, 2009   #4
travis
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 2,987
Default

Interesting methodology.
travis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2, 2009   #5
dice
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: PNW
Posts: 4,750
Default

Quote:
These plants also have suckers forming on 3 or four of the lower leaf axils... seems odd to me at such a young age/small size.
Probably a side-effect of the high phosphorus blossom booster.
I have seen the same thing in houseplants when using
Miracle-Gro. Give them a shot of high phosphorus fertilizer
with plenty of potassium, and a couple of weeks later new
side branches are showing up all over the plant.

Tom Wagner once mentioned growing rows of hybrid seed of
whatever generation in 16oz plastic beer cups to get more
plants in less space, where he was looking for a selection with
particular traits and only needed one ripe fruit from it once he
found it. He probably tossed out less promising specimens
early, as soon as he could see that the plant was not what he
was looking for. I imagine that keeping them from drying out
until they set fruit is a challenge.
__________________
--
alias

Last edited by dice; March 2, 2009 at 09:06 PM. Reason: grammar
dice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2, 2009   #6
TZ-OH6
Tomatovillian™
 
TZ-OH6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mid-Ohio
Posts: 841
Default

Yup, I got the idea from something Tom posted. I didn't know if it would work under lights.

Good to know that it is probably the phosphorus. It is useful to have the nitrogen going into lateral growth rather than having it send the plants skywards into the lights.


Watering is pretty easy, I just take the sweater box to the the tub and run some water into it and let them soak for a while.
TZ-OH6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3, 2009   #7
Raymondo
Tomatovillian™
 
Raymondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Armidale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 924
Default

Nice way to do it.

I've got some crosses and I want to grow at least one plant of each over my winter to get some F2 seed for spring sowing. I don't have lights but I'm at 31°S latitude so winter daylight hours aren't too bad. I'm intending to use small pots after reading Tom Wagner's comments on how he utilises a small amout of space to get a usable amount of seed.
__________________
Ray

Last edited by Raymondo; May 1, 2009 at 06:20 PM.
Raymondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6, 2009   #8
outsiders71
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 150
Default

So what is the minimal pot size needed to get a couple tomatoes for viable seed?
outsiders71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6, 2009   #9
Tom Wagner
Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator
 
Tom Wagner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: 8407 18th Ave West 7-203 Everett, Washington 98204
Posts: 1,157
Default

I can get tomatoes with viable seed out of a one inch by one inch ball of soil media. It may require some bottom watering and maybe allow the roots to penetrate into the tray below or even into the soil if you have them outside.

Normally I have good luck with 2 inch pots, but one gallon pots are better. Watering is the trick and I give my plants a top dressing of worm castings from time to time or as a tea.

Tom Wagner
Tom Wagner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6, 2009   #10
TZ-OH6
Tomatovillian™
 
TZ-OH6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mid-Ohio
Posts: 841
Default

I'm a little worried about low humidity and fruit set. The lights are not hot, but the normal room humidity is low and the lights do warm it up some, so I'm experimenting with glueing buds to see if it makes a difference. Gluing is something you can do outside to ensure self pollination, instead of bagging. The stigmatic fluid should stay sticky inside the glued bud. At least that's my story. The truth is that I got bored "watching the grass grow" and just had to fiddle with something.


The discount mix I am using has styrofoam in it instead of perlite so the pots are drying out every couple of days. A 4 inch pot only has the equivalent water holding capacity and root environment of a 3" pot because of the stuff.
TZ-OH6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6, 2009   #11
Polar_Lace
Tomatovillian™
 
Polar_Lace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Z8b, Texas
Posts: 657
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wagner View Post
I can get tomatoes with viable seed out of a one inch by one inch ball of soil media.
I'm glad to see that someone else has tried this! I posted that I left a hollyhock in a 2inch cell for the entire summer season a couple of weeks ago. I guess no one believed it. The hollyhock grew to be 2 & a half foot tall; and so were the roots. If I hadn't planted it the deer would've not eaten it right before a frost was due to come in (I lived upstate in NY at the time.) I left it in the cell, cut it off from the others so it could be put into the cell pack tray with other ones I was trying the same way; sorta like a floater plant. Yes, I did feed it with with a kelp and fish emulsion mix throughout the time it survived.

~* Robin
__________________
It's not how many seeds you sow. Nor how many plants you transplant. It's about how many of them can survive your treatment of them.
Polar_Lace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1, 2009   #12
TZ-OH6
Tomatovillian™
 
TZ-OH6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mid-Ohio
Posts: 841
Default

Update: The first tomatoes are ripe and yielding seeds. Plants are under 2 ft tall. As soon as it warmed up they started going outside during the day because I needed the lights for starting other things. So far I have an orange tomato (LGSxDr Carolyn?), a red with green shoulders (LGSx a black?), and a plant with wispy foliage and plum shaped fruit (not ripe yet-- LGSx Green Sausage?). The rest are a ways from ripening.
TZ-OH6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1, 2009   #13
Raymondo
Tomatovillian™
 
Raymondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Armidale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 924
Default

Interesting results. A lot of fun for a small outlay. Keep us posted.
__________________
Ray
Raymondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 26, 2009   #14
TZ-OH6
Tomatovillian™
 
TZ-OH6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mid-Ohio
Posts: 841
Default

I just processed the last ripe fruit off of the potted experimental plants. I'll plant some of these in the ground and hope for more fruit.

From four fruits off of two adjacent LGS plants, 50 seeds planted each, I got 11 non dwarf plants (crosses), from these eleven, nine yielded ripe fruits from which I saved seed (so far). The results are as follows:

-2 plants: orange-red cherries --Parent plant probably Gardener's Delight, 15 feet away, past 5-6 other plants, but maybe Dr Carolyn yellow, also a good distance away.
-1 plant: wispy foliage and a green plum shaped fryuit, but when planted in the ground is now producing pepper shaped fruit--has to be Green Sausage; parent was two plants away.
-1 plant: red globe tomato, Possibly Zarnitza, adjacent plant-1 plant with black tomato with green flesh.
-1 plant: black globe with green flesh--parent adjacent
-2 plants: black globe with green-pink flesh--parent adjacent
-1 plant: black beefsteak, green-pink flesh--parent possibly Cherokee Purple 15 feet away past 5-6 other plants.
-1 plant: green globe - parent Green Giant, 4-5 plants awayScraggly plant with few flowers

I did not keep track of which plants came from which LGS fruits, but these results (four LGS fruits with five to seven different pollen contributors) indicate that flowers definitely get mixed pollen off of bees or differnet pollen off of different bees, and not just one accidental shot of pollen from one bee from the nearest plants.

The overall ratio of crossed seed was lower for these LGSs than most of the other fruits I tested (2-10% vs. an average of 12% for the PL varieties I tested (more like 20% if I factor in the probability that the PLs are also crossed with other PL plants). I only grew out half or less of the seed from each LGS fruit (50 seeds each) so there may be even more parents in the remaining seeds. The two LGS parent plants were being partially overgrown by larger plants behind them (Paul Robeson, Black Prince, Black Krim, and Zarnitza)

I got nearly 100% germination and more or less 25% dwarfs out of the F2s. I can pretty much tell a dwarf even before the first true leaves come out just by height difference, if the seeds are well spaced. I have about a half dozen dwarfs of both the cherry, and the the Black with green flesh planted out, all with buds now, and a half dozen or so of both the Green Sausage dwarfs and a black with green-pink flesh almost big enough to be planted out. I won't have time (or room) to plant the LGSxGreen Giant seed or the black beefsteak this year.


Its been a fun little project so far, and gave me a reason to break out the lights and plant tomatoes in the middle of winter.
TZ-OH6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:29 PM.


★ Tomatoville® is a registered trademark of Commerce Holdings, LLC ★ All Content ©2017 Commerce Holdings, LLC ★