Advice on pruning to multiple stems?

[Pyrrho]

This year, I plan to try pruning my plants to 3-4 stems. When doing some research on this, I came across two sources that I found helpful. The first is this site on French pruning:

http://www.tomodori.com/3culture/taill_sur_2-tiges.htm

It features a clear diagram for pruning to one, two, or three stems (but the comments are in French). The trouble is that it directs you to cut the central growing tip before the first fruit cluster, allowing one or more suckers to continue growing (see diagrams). It also has you cutting the growing tips on each vine at further stages, allowing another sucker to continue the linear growth. I thought this a bit 'hard core' for a first time pruner, and besides, my plants were developed far enough that this would probably be a severe shock.

I also found this article helpful:

http://www.finegardening.com/how-to/...-tomatoes.aspx

It tells you to trim all the suckers below the first fruit cluster, and allow the next ones up to continue growing (depending on the number of vines you want). The reason for pruning everything below the first cluster is to allow the main stem to develop sufficiently; if lower suckers are allowed, the article states that the main stem might not get big enough.

I was going to follow this simpler plan, but for the for the first time, I noticed something about tomato plant physiology: the sucker right below the first fruit cluster is significantly larger, and further developed, than any of the suckers formed at the lower leaves.

I don't think this is the result of trimming the lower leaves (it even appears on my tow determinates -- which will not be pruned).

So, after this long preface, my question is this: which suckers should I allow to grow? Should I only use suckers above the first fruit cluster, and trim off the big one right below it, or should I keep that big one and keep the next one(s) above it to develop?

Given the size of that lower sucker, I can now see part of the rationale behind the French pruning method, as the surviving sucker is that larger one.

It may not make that much of a difference either way, but I'd like to hear what others do when pruning to more than one stem. I'd consider doing a side-by-side comparison, but my plants are too far along and I only have one plant of each variety.

Any thoughts? I'm also interested to hear any feedback on the French method of periodically cutting the main tip on each vine (see above) -- are there any advantages to doing it this way?

Thanks!

[kurt]

You might of opened a can of worms.Some will say yes,some will say no.It depends on what you want to do.In my S Florida conditions I do prune heavily for two reasons.Air circulation,(disease control)and since we grow cherrys only, for production(size quality).If you fertilize alot you problaly will not need to.Growing season length will determine pruning amount.All I can say is do side by sides for your varieties and methods.I do know if you cut or have damaged tips they do take longer to grow back to another producing stem than if you would of left it alone,but the timing of the break or cut would determine(young or latter stages of plant life).Ther just seems to be to many variables in each persons situation to advise one another on the best way.Side by sides for me in my situation are the best denominator,a journal of growing seasons a must.Good Luck.

[Pyrrho]

Kurt,

Thanks for your reply. The issue of whether to prune or not comes up all the time, but there doesn't seem to be much discussion about precise pruning methods. This is surprising, since the relative benefits of pruning (or not) would seem to depend largely on how one does it.

As my OP suggests, even if one speaks of pruning to say, three vines, there are still a number of ways to do it, and it would be interesting to find out which way works the best.

For me, I'm trying it this year to see if my plants can remain healthier, longer, by creating more airflow between plants. I've also noticed a sharp decline in fruit size and quality as the season wears on, so maybe pruning will help with that, too.

I'm going to go ahead and select the vines near the first fruit cluster that seem the best to keep, and go from there.

Perhaps next season I will do some side-by-side comparisons of pruning methods, and if others are interested, we could all try similar experiments and share results.

[kurt]

I have seen a lot of posts of tomato clusters and have noticed a lot of clusters with some smaller and even unpollinated flowers on the bunch.When I see this happen to me and know that the smaller mater will not develope in time I just go ahead and prune them off.On my cherrys I will select real early the leaders I want to save.Usually no more than 6-10 dependent on variety.By that time you know the suckers coming out will not produce in time before season ends.These all get pruned.I do not like cutting them with shears but use the down and up snap method.The cutters do not get close enough and if you leave a stub they might become infected and or encourage another sucker.Also note the air circulation has two benefits,disease control and carbon dioxide and oxygen exchange plus a dded plus for pollinization and the fact that pollinators(bees)can see them(although smell is thier main seeker).

[ddsack]

Pyrrho, I'm not much of a pruner, except to try to remove lower suckers that sneak out into the pathways to clog the walkway. I know what you mean about those low growing suckers having more vigor and thicker stems. I really feel guilty about destroying them when the plant has put so much energy into their growth, but it doesn't harm the rest of the plant. It makes sense that the plant does not have to work as hard pushing nutrients closer to the roots and soil than the high up branches, so the tomatoes and suckers can grow larger down low. I think your plan of choosing lower suckers for growing out should work fine.

[b54red]

Pyrrho, I frequently leave either the sucker just above or just under the first fruit cluster depending upon which one seems to be stronger. On many varieties the stems themselves will split and you don't have to allow any suckers to develop. On varieties which frequently have forks I will wait for the first fork and then allow one more fork on each of these giving me a total of 4 stems. When I allow one of the suckers to develop then get a fork in the main stem I will usually just allow the three main stems and each time the stems fork I clip one of them as well as all the suckers.

Like Kurt my main reason for pruning is for air circulation. Another benefit is with our very long growing season if you allow too many stems to develop you will have a big diseased tangle with mostly very small fruit later in the season. I usually keep mine to between 2 and 5 stems; but this year I am trying a fair number with just a single stem.

[Crandrew]

i feel like I need to visualize what you guys are actually pruning. Any way you have a video or illustration showing this? I know I know, i'm a visual person.

[Pyrrho]

Crandrew,

If you look at the second link in my original post, you'll find some good general information about the possible advantages of pruning, and how to do it (including a few small diagrams). I think you can also find a number of instructional videos on Youtube.

See if that helps, but feel free to use this thread for any questions you might have.

B54red,

I think I will be following you basic approach this year. I did noticed a couple of plants (Spudakee and Stump of the World) where the vine forks well below the first fruit cluster. I don't know if this is a feature of these varieties or if they are particular to these plants, but where this happens, I will use this as a guide for what to prune and where.

[b54red]

Pyrrho, I will never forget the first time I tried only pulling off the suckers on a plant that forked regularly. By the time the plant was about 3 months old it had well over 50 stems and was a huge mass of foliage with almost no fruit and what little it did have was very small. It was difficult and still is deciding which fork to cut off but now I just leave the first one to put on a blossom cluster above the fork. It seems that the more OP varieties that I have tried the more I have found that have this tendency to fork. Some varieties will fork very low and early while others tend to fork higher up on the plant and then there are those that only put out suckers to create new stems. It can sometimes be a problem pruning when you have a plant fork into 4 or more stems from one spot.

[Pyrrho]

Originally Posted by b54red

Pyrrho, I will never forget the first time I tried only pulling off the suckers on a plant that forked regularly. By the time the plant was about 3 months old it had well over 50 stems and was a huge mass of foliage with almost no fruit and what little it did have was very small. It was difficult and still is deciding which fork to cut off but now I just leave the first one to put on a blossom cluster above the fork. It seems that the more OP varieties that I have tried the more I have found that have this tendency to fork. Some varieties will fork very low and early while others tend to fork higher up on the plant and then there are those that only put out suckers to create new stems. It can sometimes be a problem pruning when you have a plant fork into 4 or more stems from one spot.

I see what you mean: I'm already seeing some varieties forking in several places even at this early stage. I'll try to stay on top of them, but since I'm coming from not pruning at all (except below the first cluster), I might be more willing to let more of these vines develop.

When it comes to pruning off a forking vine, do you recommend pruners or a sharp blade? I assume pinching them like suckers is out of the question.

[Crandrew]

dip whichever you chose in alcohol between cuts, to minimize the potential infection.

[b54red]

I use whatever I happen to be carrying at the time usually pruners or a pocket knife but sometimes I pinch them if they are small or just pinch out the growth tip.