Some problems with bagging blossoms

[tam91]

I'm trying some seed saving for the first time. I've bagged blossoms (well buds really) on a few varieties that I want to save some seed from. I used the fairly large tuille bags.

Several have done great, forming nice tomatoes inside the bags (Ludmilla's, Jaunnee Flammee, etc). But a few others, it looks to me like the blossoms just dried up. I had thought to bag early, before things got blazing hot, but... things got blazing hot.

So far, Cherokee Purple, Milka's Red Bulgarian seem to be my "problem children". I'd especially like to save Milka's, as Carolyn so kindly gave me some older seed (which germinated great btw).

Any ideas how to get this to work if I try again? I hate to keep "sacrificing" whole trusses of tomatoes.

[Suze]

Originally Posted by tam91

But a few others, it looks to me like the blossoms just dried up. I had thought to bag early, before things got blazing hot, but... things got blazing hot [...]

Any ideas how to get this to work if I try again? I hate to keep "sacrificing" whole trusses of tomatoes.

This is why I generally don't bag blooms here in Texas. I'd like to, but the early onset of heat + admittedly the sheer # of vars I grow generally makes it impractical.

I too got tired of sacrificing whole trusses of tomatoes.

About all I can offer is you've got to do it very early in the season and often, because later in the season even with tulle (vs organza, which is worse) there can still be some heat buildup in the bag.

Shake any bagged trusses daily, preferably early in the morning to around noon or so - might help a little with pollination if you want to try again.

[tam91]

Hmmm. Well I bagged some of the first trusses, but then we went from cold and raining constantly to baking with no rain. Grr.

I was shaking everything - I have lots of nice fruit set, except in those couple bags.

So is it too late to try again now?

Would it help to rig some short of shade over those trusses?

[Suze]

Hard to say if it is too late where you are at to try again, because I don't know your weather. But in general, if the days are now well into the 80's or above and the rest of your tomato garden is cruising along while you try to get something to set in bags for a couple of varieties, then probably a little late.

I don't think it's a big deal if you just went ahead and saved seed from a few unbagged fruits instead, but that's up to you.

[cleo88]

I am having the same experience bagging blossoms - some set fruit just fine, others don't seem to like being in the bag. Also, I made the mistake of waiting too long with one of my determinate varieties and now I think all the fruit is set already. Grrr!

[tam91]

Oh it sure is 80s. Hot spell now, it'll be 90s. So I guess no more bagging for me.

I guess I'd really like to get pure seed, I have such limited space I would be disappointed to grow out crossed seed.

I am delighted though - Captain Lucky did grow inside the bag for me - yay!

[jas47]

Tam91
I live about 100 miles sw of you and we are due for mid 90's next week so I probably would not bag. Besides, I have 175 plants and have seen no bee activity.

Jack

[lakelady]

Tracy, I'm wondering if you could just put some sort of physical barrier between the plants? If bagging is making it too hot that is.... I have a lot of bees (my neighbor across the lake has honey bees and yes, they love my yard) so I am concerned for next year because I had the intention of bagging too...I'm going to have some tomatoes in containers and they will be very close.

I guess the consensus is to bag as early as you can and often if possible before heat sets in.

[Suze]

Originally Posted by lakelady

I guess the consensus is to bag as early as you can and often if possible before heat sets in.

Pretty much. Perhaps others who successfully bag blooms could share their tips on this thread?

Here in Texas, I only have a 2 week window to attempt bagging (maybe 3 weeks if I'm lucky and it is a cool spring), and even then, it frequently doesn't work out. So I just don't bother anymore.

I've also found I only have about a 2 week window to make crosses. After that, they just don't take.

[tam91]

Last year I did try bagging the first blossom sets - but less than 1/2 of my varieties worked, and when they did, I only got one fruit each. Not very successful at building seed stock. On the bright side, Captain Lucky was one of the few that did set fruit in the bag.

As I use Florida Weave, it'd be pretty hard to put something between the plants. But if I did something different with a few, I had wondered about building a simple wood frame box, with window screen for the sides and top and setting that over a plant. I would think it would allow enough breeze through. I would hope it wouldn't make it hotter, but maybe it would - I'm not sure. Thoughts?

Next year, I will probably try extra plants of a special variety or two in isolation - if I put them in containers, on the other side of the house and 100 feet or so from the garden, I'd think that would be good enough, right? (of course, more than one variety would have to be far apart as well)

[lakelady]

I had seen a box somewhere that was built for isolation. It was 5 sides, with wooden ( I assume wooden) framing, and screening material all around. Keeps out the bugs I guess and you have to hope the wind will pollinate. Not sure how you would do that with a FLorida weave though. I'll have to think this one over and see if I can come up with something else.

[Boutique Tomatoes]

Originally Posted by lakelady

I had seen a box somewhere that was built for isolation. It was 5 sides, with wooden ( I assume wooden) framing, and screening material all around. Keeps out the bugs I guess and you have to hope the wind will pollinate. Not sure how you would do that with a FLorida weave though. I'll have to think this one over and see if I can come up with something else.

I've used a PVC frame to hold up bags made of Agribon row cover fabric over peppers. That way your frame won't eventually rot, you just stick the uprights in the ground to anchor it and you can just pull the PVC apart for storage when you're done. This year I had big plans to do it on a larger scale but my seamstress had other priorities.

It works better than bagging individual branches with peppers, and I suspect with tomatoes as well. Problem would be that tomatoes get so much bigger than pepper plants do, unless you built 7 foot tall frames you'd probably have to tent them early and take them off after a few fruit had set.

[tam91]

PVC would be easier, what a good idea. Is the row cover better than using window screen? Thinking maybe so, as it's designed for it... Where do you buy that?

If I were going to do that, I'd just do something different with those particular plants and not include them in the Florida weave.

Of course, in another thread, Carolyn is urging me not to be so fussy about bagging... we'll see...

[Suze]

Originally Posted by tam91

Of course, in another thread, Carolyn is urging me not to be so fussy about bagging... we'll see...

Well, that is just Carolyn's personal opinion.

But of course, that is a personal opinion from someone who has managed to grow and save seeds from a tomato or two over the years.

Don't get me wrong - nothing wrong at all with attempting to bag blooms if you can, but I think you'll find if you grow a lot of varieties and/or have weird weather/seasons where the temps are unstable, it can frequently be impractical.

My general thoughts are that there a lot of potential steps where you can end up with the "wrong" seeds, and taking a lot of care/paying careful attention in every step of your seed saving is likely more important than trying to bag blooms. IME, I figure that more wrong seeds get saved and re-distributed by getting things mixed up during the seed saving process than they do by accidental bee crosses because someone did not bag.

Think about it, lots of ways to go wrong - 1) improperly labeling tomatoes when picked if one is not careful, 2) not labeling the fermentation/processing cups properly and/or being distracted when doing so, 3) not labeling the paper plates correctly or taking extra care to make sure one puts the right seeds on the right plate, 3b) not clipping your nails way down when you start seed saving, as extraneous seed can get stuck under your fingernails - also, if you rinse seeds in a small strainer when processing as I do - tap the heck out of it to drop all seeds, and also make sure it is not one that has a "lip" that holds onto seeds, 4) Once dry, not being extra careful to put the seeds in the correctly labeled vial/coin envelope/whatever, 5) not taking care to pull the correct vial/envelope when sending out seeds and, 6) The person on the other end isn't careful to properly label their seed starts from the seeds you've sent out - of course, something the seed saver/sender has no control over, but it is yet another factor to consider.

Not suggesting there is no point at all in trying to bag blooms, or trying to dissuade folks from the attempt.

But I did want to point out that bagging doesn't guarantee "pure seed" because there are also several other potential pitfalls and possibilities for errors along the way. Not bagging, my personal experience is that x-pollination of tomatoes happens 5% of the time or less (on avg) based on grow outs of my own saved seeds over the years.

[Boutique Tomatoes]

Originally Posted by tam91

PVC would be easier, what a good idea. Is the row cover better than using window screen? Thinking maybe so, as it's designed for it... Where do you buy that?

If I were going to do that, I'd just do something different with those particular plants and not include them in the Florida weave.

Of course, in another thread, Carolyn is urging me not to be so fussy about bagging... we'll see...

IMHO, the row cover is easier and cheaper. If you can find a growers supply place that carries it you can buy bolts of it fairly cheap, I think I bought 250 feet of 10 foot lightweight agribon for around $50, and that will make a lot of isolation tents. It's easy enough to cut a section out and run a couple of seams on the sewing machine to make essentially a big bag to slide over your frame. Roll them up and put a rubber band around them and they store easily in a bag for next year.

If you can't find it locally, Johnny's Selected Seeds sells it fairly cheap, but shipping would probably be a bit for something that large.